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OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

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Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#131

Post by lawl »

dang wrote: post #60

We don't need more than one story about this on the front page, so I'm killing the others. Commenters: To state the obvious, this is an inflammatory topic. If you post a comment, make sure that it is a thoughtful one. Readers: If you see a comment that is not thoughtful, please downvote it. Most comments in this thread so far have not been, so you have your work cut out for you. In extreme cases, flag the comment. To…

I think submitting a separate story would be better so it gets proper attention and can be discussed without derailing this submission.

Hmm, yeah I guess I just accused the mods of derailing.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#132

Post by gocarsno »

duaneb wrote: post #80
gocarsno wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how that's relevant.

Just because Uganda is "worse" than opposing gay marriage does not imply that opposing gay marriage is at all positive.

Which is not what I said or even implied.

I said the situation in Uganda can't be considered "close" by any stretch of imagination to the situation in California until recently, before gay marriage was legalized. I also implied reaction should be proportionate to the degree of wrong. How the heck did you infer "opposing gay marriage is positive" from that?

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#133

Post by jrs99 »

davidgerard wrote: post #117
jrs99 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's EXTREMELY bizarre that they would not have seriously thought of it. Unless they all share the same opinions as Eich and they feel that being against gay marriage is like being against anchovies on your pizza. Then it would never have hit them that this was a serious problem.

I think stupidity is a sufficient explanation. "I'm envisioning the board standing around with glassy stares, 'I have no idea how this could have happened. We totally vetted his geek cred.'" - rone

But, at the same time, it still had to not bother them sufficiently enough to raise serious questions.

To me, it's like watching someone kick a puppy and then considering him for CEO.

"hey, how about this guy? He kicked a puppy."

"Is there anything about him that we need to be aware of?"

"no, not that I know of."

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#134

Post by foolrush »

vacri wrote: post #94
foolrush wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, Mr. Eich's “silent” support of legislation that discriminates against individuals is precisely the type of societal friction that Foucault hinted at. It is everyone's business. The sooner the culture makes an othered minority issue socially repugnant and less some sort of innocuous personal political belief as you hint, the greater the chance for longer term change.

Conversely, hurting Mozilla is not just hurting Eich, but hurting all the other people who work there, including the very people that OKC is defending. So despite Eich's personal politics, Mozilla is a place where healthcare is extended to transexuals, and staffers have come out in support of Mozilla org's friendliness to non-straight sexualities, even though they don't support Eich's personal view. http://subfiction…

Absolutely fair point.

I would be interested to hear from the LGTB community within Mozilla as to where the consensus is on this move.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#135

Post by dang »

lawl wrote: post #131
dang wrote: post #60

We don't need more than one story about this on the front page, so I'm killing the others. Commenters: To state the obvious, this is an inflammatory topic. If you post a comment, make sure that it is a thoughtful one. Readers: If you see a comment that is not thoughtful, please downvote it. Most comments in this thread so far have not been, so you have your work cut out for you. In extreme cases, flag the comment. To…

I think submitting a separate story would be better so it gets proper attention and can be discussed without derailing this submission. Hmm, yeah I guess I just accused the mods of derailing.

I'm afraid you may have missed my point. I was deliberately intervening in this submission, because the thread sucked. Edit: it might be a bit better now.

All: Unthoughtful comments should be downvoted. Have at it.

Edit: I've mollified my wording slightly. Please downvote judiciously.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#136

Post by eaurouge »

dmazin wrote: post #103
gojomo wrote: post #78

And if this doesn't work, eventually when you try to message a Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, or other religiously-observant person from a denomination whose leaders publicly disapprove of homosexuality, you'll see a message from OKCupid like: Religion isn't normally the business of a website. But you've expressed an interest in dating someone whose religion denies equal rights to gay people. Sure, this person may seem OK…

The problem is not that Eich's beliefs are a deviation from a norm (whether they are or not is irrelevant). His beliefs are hateful. The reason for this particular message is because it is part of a greater campaign to show Mozilla that users and producers on the internet are not in support of Eich's appointment.

Why do you say his beliefs are hateful? And, is a person's beliefs/opinion constant and permanent or do they change over time?

Here's what Elton John had to say in 2008 (his views have since changed); from HuffPo [1]:

"We have a civil partnership," he said, talking about he and longtime partner, David Furnish. "What is wrong with Proposition 8 is that they went for marriage. Marriage is going to put a lot of people off, the word marriage," he said to USA Today at a gala for his Elton John AIDS Foundation in 2008. "I don't want to be married. I'm very happy with a civil partnership. If gay people want to get married, or get together, they should have a civil partnership. The word 'marriage,' I think, puts a lot of people off."

Would you describe that as hateful?

1. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/21/elton-john-gay-marr...

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#137

Post by ignostic »

gojomo wrote: post #78

And if this doesn't work, eventually when you try to message a Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, or other religiously-observant person from a denomination whose leaders publicly disapprove of homosexuality, you'll see a message from OKCupid like: Religion isn't normally the business of a website. But you've expressed an interest in dating someone whose religion denies equal rights to gay people. Sure, this person may seem OK…

There's a big difference between discriminating against a person based on their beliefs and trying to prevent discrimination based on beliefs. This comment is shocking in that you not only miss that difference, but imply that someone attempting to prevent discrimination is more likely to be a party to discrimination!

Holding a religious belief is one thing, and I'd be upset if OKC was discriminating against any group for holding a personal religious view. You cross a line when you try to outlaw something (that does not infringe on another's rights) based on personal or religious belief.

I don't care at all if Brendan Eich is or is not gay. I'd be saddened if he thought it was immoral, but grant him the right. What upsets me is that he's willing to donate money to organizations that, in my view, encourage discrimination based on sexual orientation.

Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs, so long as those beliefs don't lead to actions that infringe on the rights of others. I believe Brendan Eich has crossed that line, and that OKC is to be praised for exercising their right to free speech in defense of equality.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#138

Post by dmazin »

sliverstorm wrote: post #130
dmazin wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue I, and I think others, have with this appointment is what the appointment implies: in a world where many hateful people hold power, yet another hateful person should hold power (in, of all places, an organization seemingly rooted in progress).

But if we discriminate against him purely on the basis of his beliefs (and not his actions on the job), we are no better than he. (If his personal beliefs do pollute his work then do as you will, run the guy out of town on a rail if you must)

I disagree. There are actions which should be applied to oppressors and not the oppressed. Publicly embarrassing bigots is necessary to show that such beliefs will not be socially accepted; public embarrassment of minority groups is hatred.

Just a disclaimer: I fully support discrimination against bigots such as refusal of service.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#139

Post by dmazin »

vacri wrote: post #118
dmazin wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is not that Eich's beliefs are a deviation from a norm (whether they are or not is irrelevant). His beliefs are hateful. The reason for this particular message is because it is part of a greater campaign to show Mozilla that users and producers on the internet are not in support of Eich's appointment.

Given that his beliefs in 2008 were echoed by a majority of Californian voters, it's hard to argue that they're a deviation from the norm.

Yeah, unfortunately.

Re: OkCupid urges users to abandon Firefox

#140

Post by adamors »

davidgerard wrote: post #122
adamors wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> technical community & the wider world Hah, wider world. For most people, a browser is "the internet". They don't even care that it is made by a company. They certainly don't care about the CEO of this company who gave some money to some thing sometime in the past.

I think that is not how this is working out. Go to Google News, enter "eich" and see how much coverage this is getting in the international mainstream press.

> how much coverage this is getting in the international mainstream press.

Almost none. US based tech sites are reporting on it. I saw an article in the Guardian and HufPo as well. That's it. It's definitely not taking the world by storm.

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