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Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

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Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#221

Post by wpietri »

DerpDerpDerp wrote: post #202
wpietri wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure that helping to remove a civil right from a group of people can be taken as discriminatory. I agree that nobody has come forward with proof that he has done something wrong at Mozilla . Which is why he's still at Mozilla. But I don't think "hasn't been caught being an egregious bigot at work" is the only bar a CEO of a major nonprofit needs to clear. And whether or not he stays on as CEO, I think it's…

> I'm pretty sure that helping to remove a civil right from a group of people can be taken as discriminatory. Sure, he holds views that some people should be discriminated against, and contributes to political causes advocating that. Lots of people hold those kind of views, and lots of people hold other objectionable views. My objection is to punishing him at work for that, and that alone. I'm fine with Mozilla emplo…

Gosh golly, what's it coming to when right straight white people can't discriminate against unpopular minority groups without facing consequences! It's as you say: minority groups should just quit if their boss might be discriminatory. That will surely end the problem of discrimination.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#222

Post by freehunter »

david927 wrote: post #220
freehunter wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His personal view is that a subset of humans do not deserve equal rights afforded to everyone else. It's not that he votes for a different party, that's not a problem. It's that he actively wants to deny rights to certain people, some of whom are under his employ. I wouldn't want a member of the KKK running my organization either, and I would imagine most minorities would speak out about that as well. Racist or anti-…

If you deny him his job for this act, donating money to a legitimate political campaign, you're denying him his rights. He has the right to his opinion and to voice that opinion.

No one has a right to hold any particular job, especially not one as public facing as CEO. You may have the right to work, but you don't have the right to work in one specific job at one specific company.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#223

Post by david927 »

freehunter wrote: post #222
david927 wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you deny him his job for this act, donating money to a legitimate political campaign, you're denying him his rights. He has the right to his opinion and to voice that opinion.

No one has a right to hold any particular job, especially not one as public facing as CEO. You may have the right to work, but you don't have the right to work in one specific job at one specific company.

Of course you do. You can't legally be fired for saying, "I am a member of the Republican Party." Your political views (and that's what, in the end, this is) are protected, not when they are shared by everyone, but specifically when they are not.

Listen, I get where you're coming from. This is an important issue for me too. (As an aside: I have spent an inordinate amount of time working with one of the world's largest human rights organizations, including time on the board of directors for one of its structures.) I like and appreciate your passion to fight the good fight.

But! Be careful when you reach into your toolbag to fight that fight. The ends never justify the means. If we violate one person's rights by trying to protect another person's rights, we'll descend into chaos.

Always be respectful that in 7+ billion people, we're going to have a lot of opinions.

We must stop behaviors that are directly harmful. But we must always also protect people's opinions.

They're important. You have the freedom to believe whatever you want to believe. The minute that opinion crosses into a behavior -- boom! You can drop the ax. People have the right to any opinion but not any behavior. Do you see? If Brendan wants to donate money to a bill that would do x, he can. If he punishes an employee because they're x, that's wrong. (And you cannot jump in and say, "He will have a behavior because of his opinion.")

The way to handle this is to respect his opinion and be on guard that no behavior follows from it. Period. Put that important passion instead into educating and enlightening the populace. Put it into doing positive work.

Forcing Brendan to step down because he donated money to a legitimate political proposition is witch-hunting and shameful. This issue deserves better than that.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#225

Post by wpietri »

twoodfin wrote: post #215
wpietri wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Threatened with the sort of discrimination that minority groups often experience from people who have an irrational bias against them.

Sorry, when did those threats happen?

I said "reasonably feel threatened". You don't have to have someone directly threaten you to reasonably feel threatened.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#226

Post by wpietri »

slantyyz wrote: post #203
wpietri wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Context matters some . But it's not like people's opinions reverse when they walk into the office. If he is biased against gays, a concern raised by helping fund the removal of one of their civil rights, people can be reasonably afraid that this will eventually affect them in the workplace. It need not be something obvious, either. Most decisions made by CEOs, especially decisions on who to reward and promote, are al…

Just to clarify, by context, I was referring to how free he is to express his opinions. Outside of the workplace, he can say whatever he wants short of what the law allows. In the workplace, anti-discrimination and harassment laws do not make him free to express his opinions. >> If he is biased against gays, a concern raised by helping fund the removal of one of their civil rights, people can be reasonably afraid tha…

Interesting. I hadn't considered whether anti-discrimination laws would constrain him from expressing his political opinions at work.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#227

Post by twoodfin »

wpietri wrote: post #225
twoodfin wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, when did those threats happen?

I said "reasonably feel threatened". You don't have to have someone directly threaten you to reasonably feel threatened.

OK, so what was the reasonable cause to feel threatened?

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#228

Post by wpietri »

twoodfin wrote: post #227
wpietri wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I said "reasonably feel threatened". You don't have to have someone directly threaten you to reasonably feel threatened.

OK, so what was the reasonable cause to feel threatened?

That your boss has helped strip you of your civil rights.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#229

Post by figglesonrails »

TDL wrote: post #140
figglesonrails wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What abuse?" -> Demanding that he resign and step down and/or pressuring people to force him to resign? If that comes to pass, that he is forced out of his position against his will, then that isn't free speech at work, it's tyranny of the majority. He will have been effectively fired for his religious beliefs. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 Section 703(a)(1) and (2) "(a) Employer practices It shall be an…

Employees are not employers so I don't see how this a violation of Title VII since nothing of the nature has come to pass. I can demand anything I want this does not constitute abuse of any sort.

I agree it does not if you do.

It would be if Mozilla Corp (an employer) fired him or told him he must resign, hence the part "pressuring people to force him to resign". You can demand and complain all you want, but until management responds to that opinion with a loss of employment, no it is not abuse, and I would agree. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#230

Post by tellarin »

burntroots wrote: post #162
wonderzombie wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He expressed his views publicly. They are subject to public criticism. It's absurd to characterize any form of criticism, especially something relatively mild as this, as a witch-hunt. Anti-gay bigotry is socially unacceptable. Honestly anyone who thought about it at length ought to have realized we were heading in this direction. And the bar for denying an entire category of people's rights out to be relatively high…

Try to see this from another angle. It's 1970 and you've donated to an organization that advocates equal rights to blacks. As a consequence, when you rise through the ranks at your company and have the opportunity to be considered for CEO, your board of directors rejects you on the basis of that contribution. What you're saying is it's ok to deprive a man of his livelihood based on the current state of public opinion…

In my view, the key difference is how a position touches 'human rights'. If it restricts it, like anti same-sex marriage, or racism, it is wrong, period.

The concept of human-rights is quite recent and not fixed, that's for sure.

Political, economic, or other personal positions, those should be fine as long as they don't affect your work conduct.

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