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Strangecoin: a proposal for a nonlinear currency

digitalinterface.blogspot.com

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Re: Strangecoin: a proposal for a nonlinear currency

#61

I'm rather disappointed that in spite of promises that transactions can be non-zero sum, on close inspection these transactions just draw money from other accounts - usually TUA. From the description, I expected new Strangecoins to be created out of thin air by transactions, and I wanted to see where you were going with that design. If money's still just flowing from accounts into other accounts, then it's something…

Other comments suggest that this can be implemented with existing tools, which I take as a virtue of the proposal.

In any case, John von Neumann proved a long time ago that any nonzero sum game with n players can be modeled as a zero sum game with n+1 players, where the n+1 player represents the global state. TUA is simply an implementation of this proof.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game#Extensions

I tried to explain inhibition in another comment in this thread. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7496858

I give an an analogy in the proposal of the popularity of a celebrity couple being a nonlinear relationship to the popularity of each celebrity individually. I think our intuitive understanding of our social relationships is nonlinear in this way generally, and I think Strangecoin can model those nonlinear relationships well.

So, for instance, I'm imagining a family, spouses, close friends, and so on entering into extended coupling transactions, so that as a community their prosperity rises and falls together. I might also enter into such transactions with certain business with whom I want to couple my activities, and these coupling transactions might serve in lieu of direct billing or payment. A coupling relationship with a business is effectively a contract, but with traditional currency you need the whole legal framework of contracts to support the transaction, and with Strangecoin the transaction is built directly into the currency, and the interface looks almost exactly like a point-of-sale cash transaction.

And I can enter into less serious relationships of varying degrees with other parties. The effect is a way of managing not just financial transactions, but also reputation, investment, and other dynamics social constraints on the economy via the currency itself. Money is memory (http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/sr/sr218.pdf), but our existing currencies only represent some aspects of our economic activity, and therefore put limits on the memory stored in the economy. A nonlinear coin like Strangecoin can embed that social knowledge in the currency itself, providing a more robust memory framework on which we can conduct our economic transactions.

I only hint at this in the proposal, but I suspect a system like this is required to resolve the twisted legal artifice the corporate veil, because it quantifies explicitly the role individuals have in collective economic activity, and thereby gives a method for explicitly holding persons proportionally responsible (in both credit and blame) for their contributions to that activity.

But I think that's a much more radical proposal than the one I've offered for Strangecoin, and I should probably only be defending that here. =)

Re: Strangecoin: a proposal for a nonlinear currency

#62

I think the "Strangecoin transactions can be nonzero sum" idea is flawed. But did I understand correctly: Would this be a cryptocurrency with a money base that expands/disappears as the 'fait value' rate goes up and down? That would be cool!

"Would this be a cryptocurrency with a money base that expands/disappears as the 'fait value' rate goes up and down?"

I've actually been toying with that idea.

Re: Strangecoin: a proposal for a nonlinear currency

#63

I think the "Strangecoin transactions can be nonzero sum" idea is flawed. But did I understand correctly: Would this be a cryptocurrency with a money base that expands/disappears as the 'fait value' rate goes up and down? That would be cool!

"Would this be a cryptocurrency with a money base that expands/disappears as the 'fait value' rate goes up and down?" I've actually been toying with that idea.

More info please ...

Re: Strangecoin: a proposal for a nonlinear currency

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Would this be a cryptocurrency with a money base that expands/disappears as the 'fait value' rate goes up and down?" I've actually been toying with that idea.

More info please ...

The basic sketch is to have a way to feed back information about pricings into the block chain. There are then a few ways to increase/reduce the currency in circulation, some of which involve creating coins and some of which involve shifting incentives for holding coins. Most of what remains, then, is a control theory problem.

My current issue is deciding what should actually be targeted. Targeting a single currency or commodity has most (though not all) of the downsides of just using that currency or commodity more directly. Baskets of goods is one approach. Other statistics are also good candidates, though - stabilizing the mean rate of change across a lot of goods, or the like.

Re: Strangecoin: a proposal for a nonlinear currency

#65

I'm rather disappointed that in spite of promises that transactions can be non-zero sum, on close inspection these transactions just draw money from other accounts - usually TUA. From the description, I expected new Strangecoins to be created out of thin air by transactions, and I wanted to see where you were going with that design. If money's still just flowing from accounts into other accounts, then it's something…

Other comments suggest that this can be implemented with existing tools, which I take as a virtue of the proposal. In any case, John von Neumann proved a long time ago that any nonzero sum game with n players can be modeled as a zero sum game with n+1 players, where the n+1 player represents the global state. TUA is simply an implementation of this proof. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum_game#Extensions I tried…

I think you might ultimately have to explain and defend these ideas together. Bitcoin proved that a purely digital currency could have value alongside government-issued currencies.

To create a viable Strangecoin network, you'll need to demonstrate how a more cooperative economy can come into being and retain value within a more predatory, zero-sum society, where corrupting your network and exploiting it may yield rewards in US dollars.

Re: Strangecoin: a proposal for a nonlinear currency

#66

I think the "Strangecoin transactions can be nonzero sum" idea is flawed. But did I understand correctly: Would this be a cryptocurrency with a money base that expands/disappears as the 'fait value' rate goes up and down? That would be cool!

The way I've written the proposal, the raw quantity of coin doesn't change; all that changes is the rate of exchange across parties. The added value is generated by the network of transactions as an emergent property. But there's probably other ways to do such a proposal. Again, my main goal is to put an idea like this on the table to see what people do with it.

I think it's a brilliant idea, but I don't think people will be motivated to move forward with it without a clearer picture of what they would be creating in the real world.

We are strongly conditioned to try to "capture" value. You are attempting to redefine value in such a way that it is no longer advantageous to "capture" it at the expense of the overall system. But what would it look like in the real world?

It is a genuine challenge to envision real world transactions and a society based on Strangecoin, and even more difficult to come up with a profit motive to create it in the first place. Does a barista "couple" herself to a cafe when she gets a job that pays in Strangecoin? What are the effects of this vs employment as we know it? How does she fare as a result when compared to someone working for dollars with an employment contract?

Money serves many purposes, and one is to create incentives. Often these incentives are coercive. They don't have to be, but there are philosophical as well as technical challenges to overcome. When everyone is acting according to one set of rules, it is difficult to create a competing set of rules without some clearly defined advantage for doing so.

Re: Strangecoin: a proposal for a nonlinear currency

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way I've written the proposal, the raw quantity of coin doesn't change; all that changes is the rate of exchange across parties. The added value is generated by the network of transactions as an emergent property. But there's probably other ways to do such a proposal. Again, my main goal is to put an idea like this on the table to see what people do with it.

I think it's a brilliant idea, but I don't think people will be motivated to move forward with it without a clearer picture of what they would be creating in the real world. We are strongly conditioned to try to "capture" value. You are attempting to redefine value in such a way that it is no longer advantageous to "capture" it at the expense of the overall system. But what would it look like in the real world? It is…

We're talking about values, but I think these are ultimately empirical questions about which system performs better under certain constraints.

I think these empirical questions can be resolved prior to implementation, by modeling the incentive structure of employees operating under traditional payment schemes, and employees operating under coupling transactions under Strangecoin, and then running simulations of the two models. I suspect traditional currencies will perform well under certain assumptions, but also that Strangecoin will perform well under similar assumptions, and may even outperform traditional currencies.

In particular, I suspect that an employee with a coupled Scoin transaction with a business will have a closer relationship with that business, partly because the transaction has direct consequences on every other transaction the user engages in, and (by extension) has a closer association with that employee's identity than another business offering only a weekly paycheck.

Businesses spend lots of money cultivating employee cultures so that they identify with the business, and these aspects of the culture can be more influential on employee motivation and job satisfaction than financial compensation. Strangecoin builds these relationships directly into the transaction, so we might expect it to have similar consequences.

But as I said, I think these are empirical questions that can only be solved from the armchair if that armchair is in front of a computer model simulation.

Re: Strangecoin: a proposal for a nonlinear currency

#68
Thanks everyone for a fascinating discussion. I found this thread incredibly productive and encouraging.

If you are interested in developing this idea further, please get in contact on my blog or G+ profile.

http://digitalinterface.blogspot.com/ https://plus.google.com/u/0/117828903900236363024

Re: Strangecoin: a proposal for a nonlinear currency

#69
post #28
post #9

'Basic income' which is not coupled to any expenditure (e.g. by mining) will have a tragedy of the commons problem in a pseudonymous system. In a pseudonymous system, I can make as many addresses / accounts as I like (since a pseudonym is, by definition, not tied to any real identity). Therefore, to maximise income, someone can create duplicate addresses, causing the basic income to be distributed according to the nu…

While this is a valid objection to the design as stated, there are solutions. For instance, the insight behind Bitcoin is that instead of the one-IP-one-vote policies of previous distributed protocols and the sock-puppeting that ensues, proof of work means that it's one-CPU-one-vote. And schemes like proof of stake go even further so it's one-coin-one-vote.

Bitcoin already has a basic income distributed via one-CPU-one-vote: it's called a mining reward. And if you distribute a basic income via one-coin-one-vote it's called an interest rate. The whole point of BI is to be per-person.

Re: Strangecoin: a proposal for a nonlinear currency

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I think you have to go with the subjective meaning. I don't think you can talk about objective benefits, otherwise things go to hell very quickly. Where do drugs (legal or illegal), alcohol, tobacco, sugary foods, fatty foods, fast cars, hybrids, condoms, birth control pills, church donations, etc all fall? It really depends on who you are. There's no way to have an objective arbiter who determines what is actua…

I didn't mean "the value we think they should be deriving." I meant that people can be mistaken (or mislead) about how much they value something even in the short term. If someone thinks they are buying a reliable car and gets a lemon, I think it's more correct to say "they didn't get the value they expected" then "their revealed preferences show they really wanted the lemon".

Ah yes, that makes much more sense.
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