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Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

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Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#181

Post by runeks »

Nursie wrote: post #161
mbesto wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen a lot of replies to this comment that are missing the point tomasien is trying to make. BTC can actually completely wipe out the need for VISA, MC, etc. as it can serve for the underlying technology for transactions. The only thing stopping this from happening today is illiquidity of the BTC (insert fiat currency) market. Once we see more liquidity, this dream can become a reality.

Transactions are not reversible. This feature is important. No, BTC cannot replace Visa/MC etc.

> Transactions are not reversible. This feature is important. No, BTC cannot replace Visa/MC etc.

How do you think merchants are paid by VISA? Through wire transfers. Are wire transfers reversible? Nope. Yet VISA is a reversible payment system built on top of bank-to-bank wire transfers. Customers deposit funds into their bank account, they get a credit card tied to this account, they pay a merchant with this credit card, the merchant receives the money into their bank account.

Just because the lowest layer is not reversible, does not mean reversibility cannot be built on top. In fact, it's preferable that the lowest layer be irreversible, because irreversibility cannot be built on top of a reversible system.

Bitcoin is the IP Protocol of payment protocols. I'm sure that companies are busy building the TCP/IP protocl of payment protocols on top of Bitcoin right now.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#182

Post by corresation »

runeks wrote: post #178
kalleboo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The best solution IMO is to use a risk analyzer to determine the number of needed confirmations As I understand it, you can still feel pretty safe with 0 confirmations if you're monitoring the bitcoin network for double-spend attempts over the average network propagation time. If you don't see any double-spend attempts anywhere on the net by the time most of the net has seen your transaction, you're probably good.…

> There are a lot of hidden pitfalls in bitcoin security (such as - the above isn't guaranteed, if miners change their mind to be greedy and pick the transaction with the highest fee instead of the first one, that method breaks) so I'm not sure if it's bulletproof though. Keep in mind that enabling this also opens up a counter-attack, against double spending: if User A sends 1 BTC to you with a fee of 0.0001 BTC, and…

Is this actually possible? You couldn't change the original transaction without the private key, nor can you spend the results of it until it is in an accepted block chain block, no? Am I wrong?

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#183

Post by hendzen »

corresation wrote: post #182
runeks wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are a lot of hidden pitfalls in bitcoin security (such as - the above isn't guaranteed, if miners change their mind to be greedy and pick the transaction with the highest fee instead of the first one, that method breaks) so I'm not sure if it's bulletproof though. Keep in mind that enabling this also opens up a counter-attack, against double spending: if User A sends 1 BTC to you with a fee of 0.0001 BTC, and…

Is this actually possible? You couldn't change the original transaction without the private key, nor can you spend the results of it until it is in an accepted block chain block, no? Am I wrong?

You can broadcast a valid tx that depends on an unconfirmed valid tx that was already broadcasted. The second tx will only be confirmed if the first is, this is how betting sites that accept 0conf txs (such as SatoshiDice) work.

Not sure if pool software currently selects txs as a sum of the fees of the txs that depend on them, but it seems reasonable to implement.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#184

Post by Nursie »

runeks wrote: post #181
Nursie wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transactions are not reversible. This feature is important. No, BTC cannot replace Visa/MC etc.

> Transactions are not reversible. This feature is important. No, BTC cannot replace Visa/MC etc. How do you think merchants are paid by VISA? Through wire transfers. Are wire transfers reversible? Nope. Yet VISA is a reversible payment system built on top of bank-to-bank wire transfers. Customers deposit funds into their bank account, they get a credit card tied to this account, they pay a merchant with this credit…

>> Just because the lowest layer is not reversible, does not mean reversibility cannot be built on top.

But it might mean it's not a great consumer payments product on its own, which is what the BTC crowd are cheerleading for, incessantly.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#185

Post by wdewind »

runeks wrote: post #179
wdewind wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's completely different from sales tax because while the company will have slightly increased costs (usually ~2.5%), they will also move significantly more inventory which will allow quicker reinvestment cycles, and thus more growth. This is the value of credit/debt in general: assuming everyone trusts everyone else transaction volume can greatly increase. And that trust comes from the credit card companies.

I think the point is that if we can replace credit cards with a no-fee payment method, merchants will save 3% on every transaction. Of course, it has to be as easy for the consumer as credit cards (which I think Bitcoin can become).

No, the point is that credit cards give people a line of credit, which increases overall liquidity. People buy things on credit cards they wouldn't otherwise be able to. When they buy that thing on a credit card, the company selling that thing gets the money earlier, and can thus take it and buy more from their suppliers and so on and so forth.

Bitcoin removes overall liquidity, by behaving like cash. The merchant may save 3% on bitcoin transactions, but they will have fewer transactions.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#186

Post by aestra »

cstejerean wrote: post #173
jdh wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe not in the next few years. But people who pay with cash because they aren't allowed to be in this country and don't want a bank account (some portion of the unbanked) might enjoy shopping in the digital world by using some "digital cash".

They can already shop in the digital world with prepaid Visa, Master Card or even AmEx cards. Going after people without bank accounts is big business.

Can they?

I tried to order something online with a prepaid debit card once and it was rejected. I then put in my CC and it worked fine.

Disclaimer: My experiences don't necessarily reflect others.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#187

Post by gnaritas »

grey-area wrote: post #177
gnaritas wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safety for the merchant. First off, funds don't need to be checked, there is not a card status or funds available, address is not necessary so all of those things are problems cards have that Bitcoin doesn't; they aren't relevant. It is just as safe to accept a 0 confirmation transaction as it is to accept a credit card. In both cases, the transaction could be essentially reversed either by a double spend or by a cha…

If it's 0 confirmation, what exactly is checked? I'm not convinced vendors are the important party here, they are making a sale and the onus is on them to provide an easy method of payment. Convincing customers to give up the protections of CCs or other digital cash payments would be a very hard battle. Escrow is not a viable alternative to verified identities in transactions, and for most consumers the slim advantag…

> If it's 0 confirmation, what exactly is checked?

That's it's been broadcast to the network.

> Convincing customers to give up the protections of CCs or other digital cash payments would be a very hard battle.

No it won't, customers don't like sharing their credit card information online, it's why Paypal is still in business.

> and for most consumers the slim advantages of Bitcoin are far outweighed by the numerous disadvantages.

Not when they trust their vendors. I trust Amazon for example, I don't need to pay a few extra percent to the card company for consumer protection. Bad reviews work far better in getting a vendor to act.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#188

Post by gnaritas »

Nursie wrote: post #159
gnaritas wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Safety for the merchant. First off, funds don't need to be checked, there is not a card status or funds available, address is not necessary so all of those things are problems cards have that Bitcoin doesn't; they aren't relevant. It is just as safe to accept a 0 confirmation transaction as it is to accept a credit card. In both cases, the transaction could be essentially reversed either by a double spend or by a cha…

>> Safety for the merchant. Sorry, but f*ck the merchant. We have thousands of years of history of consumers being ripped off by merchants. Laws and payment methods have spent the last few decades arranging themselves on the consumer's side and you want to rebalance evrything in favour of the people who have (historically and continually) been ripping the rest of us off? No thanks.

Merchants are ripped off by consumers far more then consumers are ripped off by merchants. That's reflected in the prices of goods which means the consumers are still being fucked by it. Saying fuck the merchant is profoundly ignorant; it's always the consumer who is fucked in the end.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#189

Post by [deleted] »

danielweber wrote: post #170
gnaritas wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stripe isn't the vendor, they're the payment processor for the vendor; that decision isn't up to Stripe, it's up to the vendor. Your relationship isn't with Stripe, it's with the vendor. Your recourse is with the vendor as well, not Stripe. The solution to this is block chain escrow through a third party.

Wait, so you really think that if I use Stripe to pay for something, and don't get it, that Stripe will tell me it's not their problem?

[deleted]

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#190

Post by Nursie »

gnaritas wrote: post #188
Nursie wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Safety for the merchant. Sorry, but f*ck the merchant. We have thousands of years of history of consumers being ripped off by merchants. Laws and payment methods have spent the last few decades arranging themselves on the consumer's side and you want to rebalance evrything in favour of the people who have (historically and continually) been ripping the rest of us off? No thanks.

Merchants are ripped off by consumers far more then consumers are ripped off by merchants. That's reflected in the prices of goods which means the consumers are still being fucked by it. Saying fuck the merchant is profoundly ignorant; it's always the consumer who is fucked in the end.

>> Merchants are ripped off by consumers far more then consumers are ripped off by merchants.

As it should be.

>> That's reflected in the prices of goods which means the consumers are still being fucked by it.

Not anywhere near as much as they get screwed withot it.

>> Saying fuck the merchant is profoundly ignorant; it's always the consumer who is fucked in the end.

Disagree.

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