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Whatever goes up, that’s what we do

dcurt.is

171–180 of 231 posts

Re: Whatever goes up, that’s what we do

#171
I did some design and coding work for the adult industry for a while. The company I worked for had one large members area with all kinds of niches, with thousands of sites acting as doorways into it. Instead of a nice overview, and a smooth experience, they had built in tons of tricky ways to delay the user getting to the content. From loading delays to tricky dropdowns instead of simple buttons.

Users had access to the site as long as they stayed on the phone to our special 2 dollar per minute phone line.

It worked, but it was a pain to work for a company like that. I was fresh out of school and just wanted to get better at my trade, but wasn't allowed to do the best I could. Frustrating.

Needless to say, things have changed in that industry, gotten a lot trickier, and the company has had to switch into different avenues. They now offer payment solutions and run a huge dating site.

Re: Whatever goes up, that’s what we do

#172
This is really an instance of the general phenomenon that the eminent tend to take fewer risks. A change that decreases revenue isn't necessarily bad; it may even yield a net profit in the long run. It's just perceived as a risk because things like user happiness and product culture (a) can't be as easily measured and (b) don't yield results for a while.

I think this is actually a rational-- or at least natural-- course of action. As you get more eminent, the stakes are also higher, and when you have more to lose you tend to take less risk. In fact, it'd be surprising if a big company continued taking risks by trusting non-structural decisions.

This is probably related to the phenomenon that large organizations tend to fall into bureaucracy. In fact the two questions are probably overlapping, if not identical. How can you grow big and famous and take on big responsibilities without losing your ability to trust your intuition and care about the feel and usability of the product? How can you stop yourself from degenerating into bureaucracy?

I'm pretty confident it's possible. Steve Jobs managed it. My own hunch is that the trick is to hire people who don't care about money too much. The kind of people who think, if we lose a bit of revenue, who cares? Which is paradoxical, my hunch continues, because people like this will eventually make better products in the long run, and end up increasing revenue in a thousand different little ways.

Re: Whatever goes up, that’s what we do

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a "Save" icon that doesn't _still_ look like a floppy disk. Until then I'll take my text labels.

Modern apps don't have a save function. There's no need for it.

All the apps must have 'Manual Override'. Save is desirable in ethical scenarios.

Re: Whatever goes up, that’s what we do

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I really hope that the fad dies out soon I wouldn't hold my breath. I think a lot of the reasons we're moving to icons instead of text is because sometime in the next ten years, the majority of all internet traffic will originate on phones, and phones don't have nearly as much real estate to devote to labels as desktop screens do.

Show me a "Save" icon that doesn't _still_ look like a floppy disk. Until then I'll take my text labels.

The stock save icon in Ubuntu hasn't been a floppy disk for years. Here it is:http://ubuntuhandbook.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/firefox...

Re: Whatever goes up, that’s what we do

#175

I'll give another way to look at it. Good design is by no means the same as optimal design. A lot of beautiful designs done by talented designers end up being worse than what was before. They might be prettier, but they are very likely worse by many conversion metrics. Don't think of it in terms of pure design. Think of it in terms of cost. Everything has a cost and sometimes good design's real cost is in user behavi…

Here's a hypothetical counterpoint to your proposition here:

A search company makes money from ads, which are unobtrusive text links which are clearly separated from search results.

The search company is forever trying to improve metrics, and in this quest, it pushes more intrusive monitoring of users, and the adverts become more and more like search results at the top of their results. According to their metrics, this is a winning move - more and more people are clicking ads, and advertisers love the stats on users.

The search company slowly starts to lose users, because they don't like the privacy issues and the intrusive ads in their search, even if more people click on them.

A few years later, the search company starts to lose its dominance of the field and hence all the money they made from more and more ads is now drying up, but every change they make to increase clicks on ads is actually having a worse effect on usage a few months down the line, even if it helps their metrics in the short term. No-one notices because the users have always been there, and this is not a primary metric or one that is easily correlated with changes.

Was this a good strategy? It was certainly a local maximum, and all the numbers went up, but was it in their long term interests?

I agree for someone like Google or FB the metric which is important is selling ads (that is their business after all), but both companies actually have two sets of users - one set are the users who read the ads, and one set are the advertisers - both are vitally important to their brand and continuing profit. Only one of those is represented in the advert CTR metric, and only one directly makes money, but both are vitally important to continuing profits.

Now you can change your metrics to try to measure user retention, but happiness and satisfaction are notoriously slippy concepts, and people often don't even know what they want before they see it and use it for a while (e.g. users of yahoo or one of the other portals would not have voted for changes to make it more like google), people hate any change, and haters are the most vocal. All those things completely skew any attempt to get numbers on customer satisfaction.

Re: Whatever goes up, that’s what we do

#176

This is essentially what happened in my group when I was at Yahoo. Our group spent several months on a redesign that made it significantly more modern and easier to use. After it went live, though, this decreased the number of ad clicks by a significant number, and the people in charge hurriedly reverted all the changes back, since they needed to make their revenue numbers in order to make their bonus. When you are s…

Nearly everyone has bought into the utter bullshit that advertising makes the web free. This delusion buries not only the fact that we have made a deal with the devil, but also that the deal really sucks. What we traded our souls for we don’t even get. The web would be both cheaper and better if we just paid for what we use straight up. And more importantly, society would be better. I'll explain all of these.

IT'S NOT FREE

We’re not Facebook’s customers, advertisers are (more on this below). But we are the advertiser’s customers, and the cost of the "free lunch" is simply shifted to the price of the things we buy from them. In other words we still end up paying for the full cost of Facebook (and even more, as I'll get to next). Costs may even shift regressively, to advertised products predominately consumed by those with lower incomes, in which case the poor are subsidizing the better off.

IT'S MORE EXPENSIVE...

Not only are you still paying for the full cost of the Facebook product you use, you are paying for all the advertising overhead: the costs of its advertising technology and infrastructure (huge, btw), the agency and creative costs (Don Draper and company have to pay for the hookers and scotch somehow, not to mention what’s-his-name who basically just lounges in his office barefoot thinking Japanese), and the advertiser's big marketing departments (that often outnumber and outspend the people making the product!).

The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads. That sucks. – Jeff Hammerbacher, fmr. Manager of Facebook Data Team, founder of Cloudera

So in addition to the original product cost and the ad overhead costs, you are also paying the opportunity cost of an inferior product (as Dennis Curtis points out in the OP) as well as the engineering costs of figuring out how to optimize ad revenue, because that’s what happens when websites have to design to please advertisers over pleasing us, the users. Dalton Caldwell makes this point comparing Sourceforge to Github[1]. As ergo says in a comment[2], “If the new news feed is making their advertisers happy (and bringing revenue into Facebook), then that's what they optimize for.” As jfoster says in a comment[3], “Ad-supported models untie the relationship between UX and revenue.”

Furthermore, our identities and privacy are bought and sold to the highest bidders. And where do the bidders get their money? From us of course! A double whammy! We're trading our privacy for free product? Bullshit. We get personalization? Bullshit. Personalization means optimizing something for me, not optimizing for the advertiser. Again, we're not the real customer. We’re certainly not Google’s[4][5].

WAIT. IT'S EVEN WORSE...

Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don’t need. – Tyler Durden, Fight Club

Think of the social costs of advertising. The web is infested with misinformation and manipulation. Beside the lying ads themselves, relying on a revenue stream entirely dependent on how many ads are seen severely affects the moral choices of those who decide what gets produced and how its presented. What are the costs of a misinformed and variously manipulated citizenry, of distortions to the free-market?

Knowledge and discourse are the lifeblood of both democracy, free markets, progress. The web, from the little scammy websites to the big brand ones that so many blindly trust, has a huge influence on who we vote for, what we buy, and most importantly, what we believe.

There is no free lunch, and there is no free web. This "free" ad-"supported" web we have is much too expensive.

[1] http://daltoncaldwell.com/an-audacious-proposal

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7484075

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7484442

[4] Lloyd made his pitch, proposing a quantum version of Google’s search engine whereby users could make queries and receive results without Google knowing which questions were asked. The men were intrigued. But after conferring with their business manager the next day, Brin and Page informed Lloyd that his scheme went against their business plan. "They want to know everything about everybody who uses their products and services," he joked. - Wired, http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/10/computers-big-data...

[5] Google's once famous clean and neutral search results are now cluttered and biased (http://arstechnica.com/business/2013/10/new-banner-ads-push-...).

Re: Whatever goes up, that’s what we do

#177
post #49

This really reminds me of the depressing way that Google optimised the blue colour of a button, while ignoring all other considerations: http://stopdesign.com/archive/2009/03/20/goodbye-google.html If you trust your metrics and nothing else, you have to be very sure that your metrics encompass every aspect of the reality you are modelling. If they just tell you about clicks and sales, they might be missing longer-ter…

Meanwhile another interesting read - http://jeffdechambeau.com/friending-fast-and-slow.html

Thanks, that's really interesting.

Re: Whatever goes up, that’s what we do

#178
> This is truly a nightmare scenario for any CEO: do you take the risk and proceed with the better user experience/product at the expense of short term numbers–with no promise that the better design will actually lead to long-term benefits–or do you scrap the new design and start over?

Doesn't this only apply to CEOs who run companies that give away their products to indirectly monetize it? If you had a product you sold to your customers wouldn't this improvement in usability/product quality be a no-brainer because better product = more sales = more revenue?

Re: Whatever goes up, that’s what we do

#179

> This is truly a nightmare scenario for any CEO: do you take the risk and proceed with the better user experience/product at the expense of short term numbers–with no promise that the better design will actually lead to long-term benefits–or do you scrap the new design and start over? Doesn't this only apply to CEOs who run companies that give away their products to indirectly monetize it? If you had a product you s…

> If you had a product you sold to your customers wouldn't this improvement in usability/product quality be a no-brainer because better product = more sales = more revenue?

Not really, because again, "better product" is only a proxy for the real goal of many companies, i.e. "more revenue". Even earning money directly on the product won't stop sales people from inserting various money extracting tricks that abuse people's cognitive biases and heuristics. Just look at Badoo. Or Zynga.

Re: Whatever goes up, that’s what we do

#180

This article makes one big unstated assumption: that users wanted the news feed to change. In fact, users didn't want the news feed to change. Users hate change. And when I say that I don't mean that users are stupid and hate good things. Users have good reasons for hating change that's forced on them: it reduces the value of their previous experience and requires extra time and effort on their part; effort that they…

> Users didn't want the news feed to change, and the users were right.

This time maybe (you'd have to look at the stats, not at the ones shouting the loudest). Usually they're not though. Users will complain about every single thing that changes, even if it objectively changes for better. Just look at the bad press Google is getting for... forcing users to use HTTPS.

Sometimes it's because benefits are not immediately apparent. Sometimes it's attention whoring (and ad-revenue for your site). And then sometimes it's just that complaining about how everything sucks is a popular way of doing smalltalk these days. But the truth is, one just really has to ignore what users "want". They'll come around anyway. Ford's faster horses, and the like.

There will always be users who have strong, nonstandard design preferences. For those we invented userscripts and bookmarklets.

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