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Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

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Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#151

Post by grey-area »

gnaritas wrote: post #148
grey-area wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit cards generally verify in seconds, so this is a significant difference, even if the time is hours (I'd read somewhere it could be days for 7 confirmations, but thanks for the correction if that is never true and it is hours) - that confirmation time varies wildly and is not predictable is also an issue. A lot of merchants ship almost immediately after orders are completed (e.g. digital goods), so introducing a…

> Credit cards generally verify in seconds, so this is a significant difference Which is equivalent to a 0 confirmation transaction, so no it's not a difference. Cards can be reversed for months, that's what 6 confirmations is competing with.

Which is equivalent to a 0 confirmation transaction, so no it's not a difference.

The CC issuer is queried for the card status, funds available, address etc, and transactions are accepted or declined based on that information. Sometimes there's even an extra verification step directly contacting the issuers bank to check a passcode (SecureCode), and all that is reversible afterward if a mistake or fraud is detected.

In what way is that analogous to a 0 confirmation irreversible bitcoin transaction?

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#152

Post by ycombasks »

srdev wrote: post #51
ejfox wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you had the option to tap a Bitcoin card and have the same experience, but save 3% on the transaction, would you?

It depends on a lot of other factors. Are my bitcoins on the card insured against loss or theft? Can I reverse the transaction if I get stiffed? If the answers are "no" and "no", then I'd probably still prefer my credit card for peace of mind. 3% isn't a huge discount in the grand scheme of things, and I get 1-3% rewards on my credit card for most purchases.

> Are my bitcoins on the card insured against loss or theft? Can I reverse the transaction if I get stiffed?

Depends. Are you using a service that provides it, and are you willing to pay for it?

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#153

Post by ycombasks »

etchalon wrote: post #130
pgtruesdell wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stripe is going to convert it to the merchant's local currency in "real time" to prevent the problems in fluctuations of BTC value. This is shaping up to be very nice. http://recode.net/2014/03/27/stripe-merchants-will-soon-be-a...

Both Coinbase and BitPay already do this.

But they don't also process credit cards. I'm sure it'll be very convenient for developers to have everything under one service.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#154

Post by gnaritas »

grey-area wrote: post #151
gnaritas wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Credit cards generally verify in seconds, so this is a significant difference Which is equivalent to a 0 confirmation transaction, so no it's not a difference. Cards can be reversed for months, that's what 6 confirmations is competing with.

Which is equivalent to a 0 confirmation transaction, so no it's not a difference. The CC issuer is queried for the card status, funds available, address etc, and transactions are accepted or declined based on that information. Sometimes there's even an extra verification step directly contacting the issuers bank to check a passcode (SecureCode), and all that is reversible afterward if a mistake or fraud is detected.…

Safety for the merchant. First off, funds don't need to be checked, there is not a card status or funds available, address is not necessary so all of those things are problems cards have that Bitcoin doesn't; they aren't relevant.

It is just as safe to accept a 0 confirmation transaction as it is to accept a credit card. In both cases, the transaction could be essentially reversed either by a double spend or by a charge-back. And frankly, a charge-back is far more likely than a double spend.

In both cases, the merchant is equally out. Bitcoin typically clears in less than an hour while cards don't clear for months. There is far more risk of a charge-back in months than there is of a double spend in the milliseconds it'd have to occur to be successful.

Cards offer more safety to the consumer of a fraudulent vendor of course, but that's the nature of cash and that's when you use escrow if it's big enough to worry you. However, fraudulent customers are far more common than fraudulent vendors; it's the vendors who need the most protection here and it's the vendors the current system disfavors.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#155

Post by jdh »

Tossrock wrote: post #147
aestra wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess what? 10 million American households are unbanked or underbanked. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unbanked

I don't think those 10 million households are going to have their problems solved by bitcoin.

Maybe not in the next few years. But people who pay with cash because they aren't allowed to be in this country and don't want a bank account (some portion of the unbanked) might enjoy shopping in the digital world by using some "digital cash".

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#156

Post by Thrymr »

gnaritas wrote: post #145
danielweber wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've described why merchants would want it. Now describe why consumers would want it.

Lower prices due to decreased risk on the merchants. If it's better for merchants, it's better for consumers too.

Higher risk for consumers, your credit card company can't back you up if you never receive what you paid for.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#157

Post by gnaritas »

Thrymr wrote: post #156
gnaritas wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lower prices due to decreased risk on the merchants. If it's better for merchants, it's better for consumers too.

Higher risk for consumers, your credit card company can't back you up if you never receive what you paid for.

Higher risk for consumers on a purchase, lower risk for consumers of being defrauded by billing scams or skimming from those who have access to their card numbers.

Consumers are accustomed to the risk of cash; and many would be more than happy to use Internet cash since they trust their vendors. They'd still have the card option for unknown vendors. Bitcoin simply adds a cash choice. This isn't an either or situation; it's a now you have two options situation.

Bonus, teenagers can now shop online.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#158

Post by Nursie »

netcan wrote: post #98
[deleted] wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

As others have said, risk=chargebacks which bitcoin does fix. with CCs merchants basically have to trust customers and being overseas makes you untrustworthy (like to chargeback). Lots of other things imply risk. The only way to reduce it is by finding out more about customers: full name, current location, previous location, chargeback history and anything else that the merchant, CC company, payment gateway and 3rd p…

Chargeback is a feature, not a bug. Without it there's no way I (as a consumer) will engage in commerce with a party I don't already trust absolutely.

And if intermediaries have to be used we get back to fees and chargeback.

BTC is not a good consumer payments system.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#159

Post by Nursie »

gnaritas wrote: post #154
grey-area wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is equivalent to a 0 confirmation transaction, so no it's not a difference. The CC issuer is queried for the card status, funds available, address etc, and transactions are accepted or declined based on that information. Sometimes there's even an extra verification step directly contacting the issuers bank to check a passcode (SecureCode), and all that is reversible afterward if a mistake or fraud is detected.…

Safety for the merchant. First off, funds don't need to be checked, there is not a card status or funds available, address is not necessary so all of those things are problems cards have that Bitcoin doesn't; they aren't relevant. It is just as safe to accept a 0 confirmation transaction as it is to accept a credit card. In both cases, the transaction could be essentially reversed either by a double spend or by a cha…

>> Safety for the merchant.

Sorry, but f*ck the merchant. We have thousands of years of history of consumers being ripped off by merchants. Laws and payment methods have spent the last few decades arranging themselves on the consumer's side and you want to rebalance evrything in favour of the people who have (historically and continually) been ripping the rest of us off?

No thanks.

Re: Stripe: Bitcoin Sign-up

#160

Post by Nursie »

wyager wrote: post #56
piokoch wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"which are awful, but necessary for now". I am not sure what is exactly that awful in having free credit for X days, rewards for making purchases (which effectively cancels fees) and, the most important thing, chargebacks. I can understand Credit Card issues from seller point of view, but for clients (that is most of us), they are not that bad. Bitcoin will have to provide the same level of consumer comfort and safet…

> the most important thing, chargebacks. Chargebacks are awful. 99% of the time, the merchant is a trusted party with a reputation to uphold, and the customer is a nobody who either couldn't care less about or couldn't be held to their reputation. Established companies won't go around overtly scamming people. The only time that chargebacks are really a good thing is with the very uncommon untrusted-merchant sale (lik…

Even nobodies have the right to be dealt with fairly and receive their money back if the company dealing with them has fouled up. We've seen again and again in the bitcoin world that companies with truct built up can either take the money and run, or just fail miserably. Consumer protections are a god thing.

Chargebacks themselves are a necessary part of the trust infrastructure you talk about. Not just for new merchants, they keep the established ones honest too.

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