Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 230 posts

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#181

Post by hkphooey »

PeterOliver wrote: post #145
DerpDerpDerp wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you support employees being fired for supporting gay marriage then? I don't see any difference in the two positions (both are using their paychecks to advanced a political cause), except that you personally agree with one position and not the other.

Where did all of this moral relativism come from? What Eich believes goes against basic human rights. This isn't some argument about tax rates.

So marriage is a basic human right?

So the right to marry whomever you choose is universal, for everybody, no exceptions?

So why doesn't the campaign for "marriage equality" fight for the right of a brother and sister to get married, or a mother and her son?

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#182

Post by hkphooey »

notdonspaulding wrote: post #164
wpietri wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely. Or that it's better to stand together than to fall separately. Or that during this moment of transition they're mostly likely to win out. Or that they want to be on record so that if something does happen, they'll have better material for a press push or a lawsuit. Or that they figure they might as well give fixing things a try before they leave Mozilla. Or a bunch of other things. The notion that them sp…

Have these employees been harmed in any way? Has Brendan Eich ever even been accused of mistreating another Mozillian because of his views on this issue? In short, are they speaking out against real offenses, or merely hypothetical ones?

These are employees who are dogmatic and who may have mistakenly believed they were working for a political organization rather than a technology company.

If Brendan Eich being CEO means they are not able to perform their duties as stipulated in their employment contract, they should resign.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#183

Post by waps »

smacktoward wrote: post #132
Jormundir wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call it a witch hunt. Now every Mozilla employee's work is contributing to Eich's paycheck. The paycheck with which he will (has) donate(d) to oppose gay marriage. If I was a Mozilla employee, this is not something I would want to be contributing to. This argument can obviously be applied to any employee in the company, but it's severely exacerbated when it's applied to the CEO, who's getting a huge payche…

If you work for a private company, and look up the causes that your CEO contributes to, you might be surprised at what you find there, too. I'm not saying Eich's contributions are irrelevant, just that he would hardly be the first CEO to hold political opinions many or all of the people who work with him find repugnant. > it's severely exacerbated when it's applied to the CEO, who's getting a huge paycheck I haven't…

Liberals have power, feel the need to enforce their social order.

Is this supposed to amaze anyone ? You should see how bad this get in some parts of Europe, although that could just be me having more experience with it in that part of the world.

The problem liberals have is that while they're endemic in the rank and file of these companies, they're not exactly common at the top.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#184

Post by hkphooey »

wonderzombie wrote: post #111
sergiosgc wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(touching this issue with all due care as not to call in the activists; read all the way through before replying) Redefinition of marriage is not a human right, sorry. I can't decide I'd like to marry my work and have society accept that as marriage. Marriage has a definition, that up until now hasn't included gay couples. Changing that is not trivial, is not a law of nature and is not supportable on human rights gro…

I don't accept this as "redefining marriage." For one thing, the definition has changed throughout history. "Redefining" is a talking point engineered by bigots when the fact is that gay marriage affects straight marriage not a whit. It's orthogonal. Straight folks just want an exclusive right to define it, and on that basis deny that right to other people. Well, sorry, but nobody ought to have that exclusive right,…

So it's not about words... or is it?

> "Gay couples have been allowed since 2005 to enter "civil partnerships", conferring the same legal rights as marriage, but campaigners say the distinction gives the impression that society considers gay relationships inferior."

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/27/britain-gaymarriage...

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#185

Post by wpietri »

DerpDerpDerp wrote: post #180
wpietri wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that only one of those positions in a boss is threatening. Take interracial marriage as a parallel. If you are in a mixed-race marriage and your boss has tried to prevent interracial marriage, you could reasonably feel threatened. Whereas if your boss supports equality, you won't worry whether you are in a same-race or mixed-race marriage.

If my boss paid money to a political cause against mix-marriages, but inside of work took no action to discriminate against people who were in mixed marriages, I'd think he was an asshat, and express such opinion, but not tie it to work any more than he was. Of course, I don't need to feel threatened by people disagreeing with life choices I've made just because they don't like them, nor do I need to retaliate agains…

Do you often tell your boss he's an asshat? If so, you should read the people commenting here that the Mozilla employees speaking out may be making career-limiting moves.

Regardless, it sounds like you haven't experienced significant workplace discrimination. Some people are prone to see discriminatory behavior as threatening because they have been threatened or harmed.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#186

Post by wpietri »

twoodfin wrote: post #153
wpietri wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that only one of those positions in a boss is threatening. Take interracial marriage as a parallel. If you are in a mixed-race marriage and your boss has tried to prevent interracial marriage, you could reasonably feel threatened. Whereas if your boss supports equality, you won't worry whether you are in a same-race or mixed-race marriage.

Threatened how?

Threatened with the sort of discrimination that minority groups often experience from people who have an irrational bias against them.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#187

Post by dllthomas »

waps wrote: post #183
smacktoward wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you work for a private company, and look up the causes that your CEO contributes to, you might be surprised at what you find there, too. I'm not saying Eich's contributions are irrelevant, just that he would hardly be the first CEO to hold political opinions many or all of the people who work with him find repugnant. > it's severely exacerbated when it's applied to the CEO, who's getting a huge paycheck I haven't…

Liberals have power, feel the need to enforce their social order. Is this supposed to amaze anyone ? You should see how bad this get in some parts of Europe, although that could just be me having more experience with it in that part of the world. The problem liberals have is that while they're endemic in the rank and file of these companies, they're not exactly common at the top.

The problem is the liberals "enforcing their social order" with their power... by individually reacting to someone spending money to make sure the government resumes enforcing a particular social order? This is entirely a contest between a liberal desire to enforce social order A and a conservative desire to enforce social order B. There's a few who basically want government out of marriage all together, but that's a tiny minority in my experience and is made up of people from both sides of the left-right spectrum.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#188

Post by wpietri »

sergiosgc wrote: post #165
wpietri wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, separate but equal. Why didn't anybody think of that? Oh wait, they did: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separate_but_equal

Do not try to conflate etymology with racial segregation. It is dishonest and an obvious trick.

I'm not conflating it. I'm saying that the logic is exactly the same. And that it doesn't work, because the solution is not to further institutionalize discrimination just because some people can't cope with equality.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#189

Post by wpietri »

notdonspaulding wrote: post #164
wpietri wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely. Or that it's better to stand together than to fall separately. Or that during this moment of transition they're mostly likely to win out. Or that they want to be on record so that if something does happen, they'll have better material for a press push or a lawsuit. Or that they figure they might as well give fixing things a try before they leave Mozilla. Or a bunch of other things. The notion that them sp…

Have these employees been harmed in any way? Has Brendan Eich ever even been accused of mistreating another Mozillian because of his views on this issue? In short, are they speaking out against real offenses, or merely hypothetical ones?

He has already worked against their civil rights. They can choose to overlook that if they want, but fear of mistreatment is real and justifiable.

Re: Mozilla employees tell Brendan Eich he needs to “step down”

#190

Post by jrs235 »

sheri wrote: post #58
simias wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on, he didn't fund the war in Uganda. I don't share his views or anything but I don't see why "not liking the gays" or whatever should have any influence at all on whether or not he's suitable to run a tech company. It's not a political office.

> but I don't see why "not liking the gays" or whatever should have any influence at all on whether or not he's suitable to run a tech company. If a person in a position of power over others (hiring/firing/promoting) has openly held views of discrimination against a certain group of people, it is a problem. It doesn't matter if he's the president, or a CEO of a tech company. Of course, its entirely possible that he d…

What if his contribution wasn't because of his personal beliefs, but was out of business consideration? Perhaps Mozilla pays more in benefits for employees that also list dependents and so to help protect "the bottom line" he is resisting paying out more in benefits even if we disagree with how he is "saving" the company money (by preventing gay marriages).
Post reply on HN