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Turkish government takes down YouTube too

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Re: Turkish government takes down YouTube too

#111

Post by coldtea »

arbitrage wrote: post #42
ljd wrote: post #7

It's interesting to see a country dismantle internet access site by site. It challenges our notions of what we think will always be there. If your site has a dependency on YouTube, your site isn't going to be functioning in Turkey. It's like Netflix's Chaos Monkey [0], but in real life. [0] http://techblog.netflix.com/2012/07/chaos-monkey-released-in...

It was interesting when we saw governments attempt it last time, too. And then they stopped, because they were overthrown. I wonder if this is going to be a law, now ... a government that attempts to dismantle the internet a piece at a time in their country is going to fail.

>It was interesting when we saw governments attempt it last time, too. And then they stopped, because they were overthrown.

Any examples? Because sure as hell many governments do just fine by making whole lots of stuff illegal, from marijuana to certain internet access, and are not overthrown at all.

Re: Turkish government takes down YouTube too

#112

Post by waps »

anigbrowl wrote: post #102
guard-of-terra wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What does the browser do, to "route around damage"?" Browser doesn't - user does.

The user isn't part of the internet, unless it's someone with a cranial implant of some sort (surely coming soon...). The phrase originally referred to protocols like TCP/IP and SMTP that used relays and packet forwarding to cope with the fact that any given set of servers might be disabled. In this respect Bittorrent is much closer to the original conception than HTTP.

I think you'll find that people mean the BGP protocol when they say the internet routes around damage. While this is true, it doesn't route around firewalls forcibly installed around a country by it's government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Gateway_Protocol

Also, I'd contend this is not really true in practice. While BGP does repair some faults, what happens in reality is that ISP engineers route around damage. BGP itself might keep reachability intact, but any error will still lead to massive capacity loss. This is then repaired by NOCs around the world. That's what really keeps the internet rolling.

Re: Turkish government takes down YouTube too

#113

Post by pessimizer »

shna wrote: post #103

I am a native Turkish speaker and I listened the recording. For one thing I did not hear anything you would not expect to hear from most of the statesman in the west in a similar situation. Conversation is about the future stance of Turkey for the civil war in Syria and lack of enough resolve for the last 3 years to intervene properly, and that does not mean directly involving but not supplying ammo to rebel groups a…

>Probably we need to consider how US would react if an Al-Qaeda linked group starts taking over northern villages of Mexico while a civil war is going on in there.

Why would "al-Qaeda linked" groups be considered more dangerous than the mass-murdering cartels? Mexico is almost a failed state and we haven't invaded.

Re: Turkish government takes down YouTube too

#114

Post by shna »

pessimizer wrote: post #113
shna wrote: post #103

I am a native Turkish speaker and I listened the recording. For one thing I did not hear anything you would not expect to hear from most of the statesman in the west in a similar situation. Conversation is about the future stance of Turkey for the civil war in Syria and lack of enough resolve for the last 3 years to intervene properly, and that does not mean directly involving but not supplying ammo to rebel groups a…

>Probably we need to consider how US would react if an Al-Qaeda linked group starts taking over northern villages of Mexico while a civil war is going on in there. Why would "al-Qaeda linked" groups be considered more dangerous than the mass-murdering cartels? Mexico is almost a failed state and we haven't invaded.

There is not a civil war in Mexico, is it? Mexican government is not bombing Mexican cities with fighter jets either. 120,000 (actually 658,000 if proportioned it to Mexican population) people have not died in Mexico in the last 3 years, and 3 million (12 million) people have not displaced as refugee in bordering countries either. Would you like me to go on?

Mexican government is fully cooperating with US and not acting like an enemy towards US, eh?

Re: Turkish government takes down YouTube too

#115

Post by waps »

Angostura wrote: post #88
toyg wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, like US and UK populations voted out their chief warmongers pronto, once it came out that the rationale for getting into the Iraq war was fabricated... oh wait

I think there's a bit of a difference between a fairly length debate about the extent to which statements about weapons of mass destruction were 'sexed up', where the government position is eventually discredited and a Youtube recording of government ministers conspiring to start a war.

There are people here who come from countries that were the target of America's equally fabricated reason to get into WWII. I would love to thank the US government for fabricating that (at the very least blowing one incident way out of proportion). My family has killed people for simply being on the wrong side of that battle, merely to make some profit selling pigs, or repairing plumming. You know what ? They were right too.

The problem with Syria is that the government is in the right. Or at least, it's less wrong. The rebels want to do religious cleansing of the country and the government wants to survive, and it's own ethnic group to survive. Of course Iran, equally being the target of the sunni muslim religious cleansing, supports their not-quite-brothers. Erdogan wants to "help" the rebels because he's on the side that wants to do ethnic and religious cleansing in Syria, and presumably because it would distract from his local problems. The problem in Iraq is the same basic thing. The good thing is that sunni muslim attacks in Syria, Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan are mostly their actions out of western nations.

But please don't be so stupid as to think they're ok with the US and generally the rest of the world just because they don't want to turn a 5-front war into a 100-front one. And also don't make the mistake of assuming they don't have support in America or don't have massive support in Europe. Both from local muslims living there, and from the governments that are afraid of these mad attacks.

As for Turkey, what do you really expect the leader of a sunni muslim religious party to do, except declare himself caliph and behave like he owns the world ? What exactly do you think he means when he says that "some" parts of sharia should be introduced ? You think he means to stop at "some" ? Really ? Religious freedom ? Sadly there are hundreds of millions of people who believe doing this is the answer to all the world's problems.

Please keep in mind that before Kemal Ataturk, Turkey, then the Ottoman empire, effectively the state of sunni islam that so many muslims are trying to recreate, had waged a 1500-year long war against the Europe, Asia and Africa. Then in WWI allah's caliph was overthrown, all but declared illegal (you wouldn't believe the number of imams killed and threatened in the 1918 - today period), and the war stopped, to be replaced with the cold war. The nightmare scenario is that this original war resumes.

[1] http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/19/turkeys-abru...

Re: Turkish government takes down YouTube too

#116

Post by vacri »

mrkickling wrote: post #94

This is how you start a revolution.

Usually the Turkish army would have stepped in and restored some sanity by now. Turkey is in the odd position that it's military coups tend to increase democracy. However, as I understand it, as Turkey wants (wanted?) to be an EU member, the army has been hesitant this time around, and the politicians have used this moment of political weakness to defang any unfriendly military chiefs.

Re: Turkish government takes down YouTube too

#117

Post by BrandonMarc »

evv wrote: post #80
Joeboy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the "information wants to be free" and "the internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it" slogans of yesteryear. The internet isn't magic. There is no natural law that means it will always emerge victorious.

You're right- the internet isn't magic. There is a natural law at play here, and you just mentioned it! Information does want to be free- its not just a slogan, its a universal law. There is no practical way for a corrupt government to constrain the flow of information in this day and age.

China's great firewall works pretty darn well. Plus the fear embedded in the populace, if they are aware of things they're not supposed to know (i.e. Tienanmen Square).

Re: Turkish government takes down YouTube too

#118

Post by pessimizer »

bayesianhorse wrote: post #92
cinquemb wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Makes you wonder, if everything had gone to the original plan in syria already, nat gas pipelines would be headed to europe by now and the IMF wouldn't bother with the gazprom bill to russia… Also interesting how there has been very little action about the blackouts from the State Dept talking heads (beyond the toothless shaming), if this had been a country not doing the bidding of tptb we would probably hear of sanc…

Are you suggesting that a "western conspiracy" was responsible for the turmoil in Syria? That their people did not have serious grievances with a regime that tortured and murdered tens of thousands of people for political reasons even before the current conflict started?

>Are you suggesting that a "western conspiracy" was responsible for the turmoil in Syria?

Who are you quoting? And is "conspiracy" just a pejorative word for 'intervention' or 'decision?'

>That their people did not have serious grievances with a regime that tortured and murdered tens of thousands of people for political reasons even before the current conflict started?

Are you suggesting that your first statement and your second statement are equivalent? That people did have serious grievances before the current conflict would lead me to ask 'why now?'

Re: Turkish government takes down YouTube too

#120

Post by pessimizer »

shna wrote: post #114
pessimizer wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Probably we need to consider how US would react if an Al-Qaeda linked group starts taking over northern villages of Mexico while a civil war is going on in there. Why would "al-Qaeda linked" groups be considered more dangerous than the mass-murdering cartels? Mexico is almost a failed state and we haven't invaded.

There is not a civil war in Mexico, is it? Mexican government is not bombing Mexican cities with fighter jets either. 120,000 (actually 658,000 if proportioned it to Mexican population) people have not died in Mexico in the last 3 years, and 3 million (12 million) people have not displaced as refugee in bordering countries either. Would you like me to go on? Mexican government is fully cooperating with US and not act…

>There is not a civil war in Mexico, is it?

Depends on who you ask.

>120,000 (actually 658,000 if proportioned it to Mexican population) people have not died in Mexico in the last 3 years

No, more like 100,000 in eight. What's your threshold?

>3 million (12 million) people have not displaced as refugee in bordering countries either.

http://usopenborders.com/2012/04/160000-mexicans-displaced-i...

edit: I'm not using Mexican figures to say that fabricating evidence in order to invade is wrong - it just is. I'm saying that using the US as a justification is illegitimate. The US has a record of invading countries in order to enrich itself. To say that Turkey is invading for the same reasons that the US invades is to say that Turkey is going to lie to its own people and the world in order to make a resource grab. That's awful, and a lot of people think that Blair and Bush should be in prison for it.

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