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Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

thenewatlantis.com

21–30 of 68 posts

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#21
post #8

It feels like this article sets up something of a straw man. The analogy that a mind is like a computer is just that, an analogy . It's used to present the high-level structure of the brain in a accessible, understandable way, not as a logical argument. This analogy is not the justification for why people believe that "the mind can be replicated on a computer". And yet the article tries to disprove the latter, deep a…

It's just the Church-Turing Thesis all over again, with a dash of metaphysical nondeterminism.

So far, everything in reality seems to be "made of" either determinism or randomness. There might be a third option (and options beyond that), but we haven't seen one or thought of one yet.

So far, computation can model determinism perfectly well (after all, computation is just very orderly, bottled-up determinism harnessed to a predictable human purpose!), and model randomness as well by drawing random bits from an entropy source. When you get deep enough, mathematics is in fact reducible to computation (paging Robert Harper). Given this, the Church-Turing Thesis says that our mechanical computers ought to be able to model anything reality is made of: either reality is theoretically Turing-recognizable given enough compute-power, or reality contains super-Turing phenomena that we could exploit to build super-Turing computers.

Thus, if we accept a couple of assertions that have held up decently so far, it looks as if all parts of our prosaic, everyday reality ought to be amenable to computational modeling, provided we find the right model and throw enough flops at it.

They are assertions, but they've also held up for a damn long time, and we would need some extraordinary evidence to accept the extraordinary claim that those assertions don't hold.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#22
post #14

The fundamental difference between minds and computers, which many people don't understand, is that computers are modelling things. They are calculating outcomes from preconditions. Minds on the other hand, while they might also be doing that, are experiencing things. They feel, see and hear. You might make the argument that we don't know whether a computer is doing that as well, because it can't tell us - but then I…

The person experiencing (using the brain) is always outside the realm of matter.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#23
post #7

I would have thought it was obvious that minds are not like computers, the really interesting question is are minds Turing machines?

Given that you can emulate a turing machine in your mind, I'd assume that it is more than a Turing machine.

Any Universal Turing Machine can emulate any other Turing machine. That's not interesting. What would be interesting would be if human minds could solve the Halting Problem.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#24
The argument in this paper comes down to "computers can't think because I don't label what they do as 'thinking'".

Now if you make the argument that we're very unlikely to build a conscious machine without knowing what consciousness is, and simply assuming that it's an emergent property of complexity is probably foolish. OK. Maybe. Who knows?

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#25
post #7

I would have thought it was obvious that minds are not like computers, the really interesting question is are minds Turing machines?

Given that you can emulate a turing machine in your mind, I'd assume that it is more than a Turing machine.

I don't think this is actually known.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#26
post #7

I would have thought it was obvious that minds are not like computers, the really interesting question is are minds Turing machines?

Given that you can emulate a turing machine in your mind, I'd assume that it is more than a Turing machine.

So then it has the power of (at least) a universal turing machine.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#27
post #3

I would have thought it was obvious that minds are not like computers, the really interesting question is are minds Turing machines?

How would you go about proving that? Also, is this something that has to be resolved before big advancements can be made in strong AI?

It is not provable and it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter if an AI is really thinking or not - all that matters is can it simulate thinking to a level that we can't tell the difference.

Re: Why Minds Are Not Like Computers (2009)

#29
post #15
post #8

It feels like this article sets up something of a straw man. The analogy that a mind is like a computer is just that, an analogy . It's used to present the high-level structure of the brain in a accessible, understandable way, not as a logical argument. This analogy is not the justification for why people believe that "the mind can be replicated on a computer". And yet the article tries to disprove the latter, deep a…

To me the most convincing discussions of artificial or engineered minds start with: "human minds exist" Therefore, whatever it is that minds do is possible.

Both you and the parent have assumed without evidence that the mind operates by local physical laws. There is certainly no evidence to the contrary, but an absence of evidence is not evidence.

Religions might be right and the mind is actually the soul.

Or we could all be characters in a virtual world "played" by beings operating us. This world could be an elaborate RPG.

Or something else we haven't figured out yet.

So don't confuse your belief with proof. Your argument has demonstrated nothing except a failure of imagination.

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