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Ask YC: Does interviewing developers leave you depressed?

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Re: Ask YC: Does interviewing developers leave you depressed?

#31
Part of it may be your questions, and part may be HOW you're asking (e.g. over the phone, or putting someone on the spot).

2) Not a lot of people write SQL by hand anymore. I used MySQL for years, long ago, and never wrote a join. Then ORMs came along and handle joins automatically, so I've still never written one. So not being able to do it without looking it up doesn't really tell you anything. I've written far, far more complex things than an SQL join statement. A more pertinent issue I'd be checking for is whether user input is properly escaped to prevent SQL injection -- again, not an issue with ORMs, but an issue when building SQL query strings by hand.

1) A lot of people use languages where recursion is unusual (i.e. NOT Lisp). Even a senior developer (especially of something like PHP) might not recall this, not having actually written a recursive function for years.

3) Representing a car as an object: A lot of software people don't know hardware, so the confounding part might be recalling various attributes of cars and how they relate to each other.

Also keep in mind that many introverted people get very uncomfortable when someone is waiting on them. This can make it difficult to concentrate at all. Being asked to perform on demand is normal for a musician but foreign to most programmers. On top of that, it's usually in an unfamiliar environment, such as verbally or on a whiteboard -- imagine asking a violinist to play on some lines you drew on a piece of paper.

PG, RTM, and TLB would probably fail your test -- they don't use SQL, they use flat files.

Re: Ask YC: Does interviewing developers leave you depressed?

#32
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm perfectly willing to write code as part of a job interview. just not on a whiteboard or over the phone. why not on a whiteboard?

Like I mentioned, I just get flustered when people are watching me, or want me to speak my though process aloud. Those skills, (being able to code complex problems when people are watching) have never been a requirement of any job I've seen so I've come out of many interviews feeling that they got an inaccurate picture of my skills.

It's a skill that can be practiced, though. And it might come in handy in general discussions, not just in job interviews.

Re: Ask YC: Does interviewing developers leave you depressed?

#33
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you should try to find out if any of these failed candidates are actually skilled developers but there's something about the questions or interview that's messing them up? hard to think of a halfway competent developer failing to answer "where I ask them to implement a simple function, implement a recursive function, write a simple SQL select (join across two tables), and create a simple object model (how would you…

I agree. The questions the OP asked are all very easy. It'd be easy to describe a function to find the longest common subsequence of a set of strings as well. The reason such a question is asked is because it isn't something that we do everyday and how we solve problems that we don't immediately know how to solve is what sets good programmers apart from bad programmers. I find anyone who immediately blames the enviro…

Are you saying that the context and type of the problem in the interview doesn't matter at all?

I think you'd understand how I can take your argument to its extreme conclusion and justify posing psychotherapy problems to candidates.

You're seeing complaining where there isn't any. It's in the employers interest to ask questions that will narrow down candidates in a way that best fits the job. Putting candidates under extremely unusual circumstances and pressure to answer unrelated questions is only going to help you know how the candidate responds to unrelated questions under extremely unusual circumstances, and pointing this out is not complaining. Acknowledging that a high pressure phone interview does not accurately reflect your abilities is not complaining either.

Re: Ask YC: Does interviewing developers leave you depressed?

#34
Are you depressed because your filter has proven very effective? It seems you should be happy. ;-)

The thing to worry about with a very discriminating filter is, like tocomments post, whether you are filtering for something different from what you really want...

Re: Ask YC: Does interviewing developers leave you depressed?

#35
Not depressing at all, completely representative of the job pool.

The technique you're using isn't common - a lot of traditional companies don't interview on skill and technique (like Google do).

Backing up your 70% of failures, we recently hired a fashion designer at our startup (we're in an interesting market!) I decided we should use the same kind of interview we would for a developer.

Everyone we interviewed was completely baffled, but it really sorted out the wheat from the chaff. At least 80% of the people we interviewed couldn't do what they said.

Thankfully though, we've ended up with someone who is really incredible. In fact, I think she has the 10x higher productivity that us developer types talk about, and her old employer is trying to hire her back.

tl;dr - looks like you've got a normal pool of applicants!

Re: Ask YC: Does interviewing developers leave you depressed?

#36
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would actually enjoy a one week type engagement to get a good fit for a company So would I. But since I'm WORKING for that one week, I expect to be paid for it. I really don't think anyone should be surprised by that!

Hmm... I see your point. Perhaps we disagree on the word "work." When I think of "work" I think of moving a company in a desired direction. A lot of people think of work as "sitting in a cube." The question is, "How do we determine if the candidate's definition of work matches the employer's definition of work?" Maybe what you think you are doing when you are working is actually causing more problems and moving the c…

Makes no difference: they hired me, they pay me. Doesn't matter if I create $1M in profit that first week or I sit there with my thumb up my ass. If I'm there I expect to be paid for it.

Furthermore, I have no interest in reducing the risk for the employer: I expect them to do that. I reduce my own risks. If I'm the employer, then of course my perspective will shift 180deg.

FFS, it's a job, not a hobby!

Re: Ask YC: Does interviewing developers leave you depressed?

#37
post #31

Part of it may be your questions, and part may be HOW you're asking (e.g. over the phone, or putting someone on the spot). 2) Not a lot of people write SQL by hand anymore. I used MySQL for years, long ago, and never wrote a join. Then ORMs came along and handle joins automatically, so I've still never written one. So not being able to do it without looking it up doesn't really tell you anything. I've written far, fa…

Sorry, we decided to go with another applicant. We'll keep your resume on file.

Re: Ask YC: Does interviewing developers leave you depressed?

#38
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would actually enjoy a one week type engagement to get a good fit for a company So would I. But since I'm WORKING for that one week, I expect to be paid for it. I really don't think anyone should be surprised by that!

Hmm... I see your point. Perhaps we disagree on the word "work." When I think of "work" I think of moving a company in a desired direction. A lot of people think of work as "sitting in a cube." The question is, "How do we determine if the candidate's definition of work matches the employer's definition of work?" Maybe what you think you are doing when you are working is actually causing more problems and moving the c…

Or perhaps better: the week's pay is given to the new employee if hired, or to a mutually-agreed charity if not hired. Then there's no financial incentive for the company to cycle through candidates for a free week's consulting.

Re: Ask YC: Does interviewing developers leave you depressed?

#39
post #6

Just out of personal curiosity, you should try to find out if any of these failed candidates are actually skilled developers but there's something about the questions or interview that's messing them up? For example I consider myself a reasonable programmer, I can certainly do any project put in front of me. But I failed a YouTube phone interview because they asked me to "say" a function for finding the longest commo…

I agree. When I first meet someone over the phone or in person I'm in a social mood and prefer to talk rather than do a code dance for them. Once I'm alone at my desk though it's easy to get down to business. Think it would be cool if companies just said show up to work, and you work for free for the first week. After that both parties can decide if they want to continue.

I thought it was very common practice to have a [paid] probation period, where the company is free to keep someone or let them go. Usually the period is less than 6 months. That seems a sensible approach to making sure your hiring decision was good or not.

Re: Ask YC: Does interviewing developers leave you depressed?

#40
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would actually enjoy a one week type engagement to get a good fit for a company So would I. But since I'm WORKING for that one week, I expect to be paid for it. I really don't think anyone should be surprised by that!

Hmm... I see your point. Perhaps we disagree on the word "work." When I think of "work" I think of moving a company in a desired direction. A lot of people think of work as "sitting in a cube." The question is, "How do we determine if the candidate's definition of work matches the employer's definition of work?" Maybe what you think you are doing when you are working is actually causing more problems and moving the c…

What are you going to do in one week at a place? It could easily take that long and much longer to ramp up and even understand a part of the existing code base.
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