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Radical Islam Website Readers May Be Prosecuted

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Re: Radical Islam Website Readers May Be Prosecuted

#31

Post by zorse »

ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #18
zorse wrote: post #7

Censorship is the worst way to fight an idea - It lays credence to that point of view ("why would the government censor it if didn't have some truth to it?") - It undermines the importance of having discussions about challenging issues - It makes those who hold the aforementioned views even more sure that they are correct, and that someone is unjustly out to get them let people freely discuss these issues and we will…

How do you feel about hate speech (anti-Islam, anti-semetic ) being banned and punishable by jail and fines in European countries?

It might be the most foolish law on the books. Does anyone think that someone who hates a racial, ethnic or religious group will all of a change their mind because its against the law?

Laws against anti-semitism lend credibility to proponents of conspiracy theories. "If what I am saying isn't true, they why is the government out to stop me from speaking about it?"

If you look at France in particular the attempt to shut down the comedic routine of dieudonne m'bala m'bala who has a routine that makes fun of the holocaust has likely done orders of magnitude more to stir up anti-semitic sentiment in France than his routine

regarding the anti-islam stuff, its a similar situation, with some important distinctions that I won't get into at the moment. Regardless, silencing anti-islamic sentiment, just as with silencing anti-Semitic sentiment, will only make the situation worse

P.s. its not just in Europe. In Canada we have 'human rights commissions' that can force you to apologize and pay enormous fines and legal fees for 'hate speech'.

Re: Radical Islam Website Readers May Be Prosecuted

#32

Post by zorse »

Crito wrote: post #22
ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel about hate speech (anti-Islam, anti-semetic ) being banned and punishable by jail and fines in European countries?

Because they disagree with zorse. That does not mean that they are wrong, nor does it mean that zorse is wrong. It just means that they disagree. (Sorry, misread your comment.) Personally, I agree with zorse. One of the best ways to combat extremism is to give extremist groups enough rope to hang themselves. Nail them when they actually solicit or request specific illegal actions (calling for hits on people, calling…

Those are great examples of 'hate' groups that have marginalized themselves just by saying what's on their mind. In the United States where speech is heavily protected by the constitution, those who hate have much less power.

Moreover, lets say that there is a person with a particularly sophisticated hatred of Jews, Muslims, gays or whoever. In fact, so sophisticated that its hard for you or I to counter his argument. This would be a fantastic situation! Why? Because we would either concede that his unfortunate views are correct, or seek a better understanding of the issue, perhaps by seeking someone who is an expert in philosophy, law or whatever and having a discussion/debate

In that circumstance we all win. You and I win because we have a more nuanced and sophisticated understanding of the issue, and everyone else wins because they can weigh the arguments themselves and make up their own minds.

Re: Radical Islam Website Readers May Be Prosecuted

#33

Post by jmct »

sentenza wrote: post #30
jmct wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we get it. 'Europe' and countries within Europe are not the same thing. You are missing the point. Yes, this article only talks about the UK, but Europe generally has a problem with free speech. The following countries have laws against hate speech: Belgium@: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Anti-Racism_Law Denmark: http://www.inach.net/content/denmark.html Finland: (sorry, could only find PDF) http://www.oh…

(Warning: Post contains expletives as part of an anecdote.) About 15 years ago I turned on the TV one day, zapped to the music channel and was faced, all of a sudden, with the face of Kid Rock. He was talking to some sort of host on the German channel when the following interchange happened: Kid Rock: You mean I can say anything?!? Host: Yes! Kid Rock: Anything at all? Host: Yes! Kid Rock: Ok, here it goes. Pussy-lic…

I think you have good points, I do think you're introducing a false dichotomy though.

I'd prefer if there were no censorship on TV and there was guaranteed freedom of speech.

I can definitely understand where you're coming from (in as much as any non-German can understand), but I do wonder if it's possible to allow hate speech and to fight it in other ways.

Maybe not, but I do think it's an ideal to strive for.

Also, when it comes to US TV, it depends on the channel and whether it's using public bandwidth. Channels like HBO and Showtime don't have to censor anything. But overall I think you're right, the US does have this strange Puritan culture that seems to be in conflict with its idea of personal freedoms.

You say that you aren't a fan of hate-speech laws in general. May I ask where you think the line is? I feel like it's incredibly difficult to define what's appropriate without leeway for abuse.

I am often envious of how good Germany (as a country/government) is about keeping things within the spirit of the law and being reasonable about how things are implemented. The efficiency of the German bureaucracy is a good example: You tend to see less waste and corruption than in other western countries.

So with that in mind, it's sometimes hard to use Germany as the standard since they set the bar too high for the rest of us!

Re: Radical Islam Website Readers May Be Prosecuted

#34

Post by waps »

zorse wrote: post #31
ChrisNorstrom wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you feel about hate speech (anti-Islam, anti-semetic ) being banned and punishable by jail and fines in European countries?

It might be the most foolish law on the books. Does anyone think that someone who hates a racial, ethnic or religious group will all of a change their mind because its against the law? Laws against anti-semitism lend credibility to proponents of conspiracy theories. "If what I am saying isn't true, they why is the government out to stop me from speaking about it?" If you look at France in particular the attempt to sh…

You don't get it. It's not just "against the law", like jaywalking. You publicly have those opinions (that imho, have some justification) and the consequences are many :

1) you won't get hired in pretty much any company if they know.

2) you will be fired from the police force and/or army if caught having them.

3) government departments are regularly purged of much less controversial opinions.

4) If you talk about this in a cafe or some such someone will report you to the police who'll find a way to correct this.

5) some decisions you may make can be punished if you are known to have these opinions. Something like the human rights commissions example you gave.

If you're smart and have these opinions, you'll bury them deep down.

I find it funny how this works, and I truly wonder what European socialists are trying to achieve by making this happen. They've already succeeded in making the extreme right comparable in size to the moderate left, and far, far larger than extreme left. And they're driving more and more people away because most of their actions are really about jealousy-driven wrongful accusations within their own people. The right, even extreme right, is currently very open to dissenting opinions and cooperate with eachother even when there exist large rifts in ideology between factions. The cynic in me says that's because they have to be. But it's giving them power.

As to why they do this, having lived there, the answer is extremely obvious : because a big class of people enjoy doing this to other people. It shows they're a good person ... yes, really.

Re: Radical Islam Website Readers May Be Prosecuted

#35

Post by waps »

[deleted] wrote: post #14

[deleted]

Because anti-islamic comments may lead to rather large riots obviously. Because of the mohammed cartoons.

Which is of course exactly what terror is trying to achieve. I wouldn't say they've succeeded very well, but I doubt we've seen the last of it.

Re: Radical Islam Website Readers May Be Prosecuted

#36

Post by hga »

BuildTheRobots wrote: post #17
CWuestefeld wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is troubling. Is there any similar law in the US? I think a conclusion you'd have to draw from the Pentagon Papers controversy is that if the gov't want to keep something secret, it's their own responsibility to do so. Once the information leaked, it was then legal to print the documents. And if that's true, then it must also be legal to read them.

Actually, I'm relatively certain that within current legal frameworks, public, published documents can be retroactively classified making you a criminal if you refuse to hand back your copy.

Something like that can be true for nuclear weapons related stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Born_secret

Re: Radical Islam Website Readers May Be Prosecuted

#37

Post by hga »

waps wrote: post #35
[deleted] wrote: post #14

[deleted]

Because anti-islamic comments may lead to rather large riots obviously. Because of the mohammed cartoons. Which is of course exactly what terror is trying to achieve. I wouldn't say they've succeeded very well, but I doubt we've seen the last of it.

The heckler's veto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler's_veto

Re: Radical Islam Website Readers May Be Prosecuted

#39

Post by Houshalter »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #27
qwerta wrote: post #11

Someone asked me recently on Hacker News, what is wrong with free speech in Europe. Well...

The thing is, free speech in Europe that contained effective propaganda got a whole lot of people killed within the memory of Europeans now living (i.e., Hitler's "big lie"). So Europe is less likely to view free speech as an unmitigated, absolute good.

That was done by the state, not a small minority. Those regimes also had pretty strict censorship policies.

Re: Radical Islam Website Readers May Be Prosecuted

#40

Post by Houshalter »

logfromblammo wrote: post #15

Crimestop! Only you can prevent tripleplusungood thoughtcrime, citizen! How can I recognize and avoid having potentially incriminating ideas? Your viewscreens are there to help. All content broadcast through the viewscreen is pre-approved and certified to produce no dangerous thoughts in most citizens. If you still find yourself having doubts about your own mind, proceed immediately to the nearest MiniTrue psychologi…

Censorship is nothing new at all.
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