Live data from Hacker News

IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

bloomberg.com

181–190 of 317 posts

Re: IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems insane. If I build 3 chairs I do not include the market price of 3 chairs on that day in my gross income, I sell the chairs and recognize the income generated by the sales.

That's not true. If you build 3 chairs and don't sell them by the end of the year, you pay inventory tax on the 3 chairs, i.e. you pay taxes on them without selling them. This is why stores that sell physical goods to a blowout sale at the end of the year.

I'm not sure what you mean by inventory tax.

If I haven't sold the chairs then I haven't recognized any income. Even if I had to value my inventory then I would value it at the lower of cost or market and in the case of Bitcoin that would be cost which would be computer depreciation and electricity, much less than the market value on the day of mining.

Re: IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

#182
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its treated as property then the maximum is 20% of capital gains. Do you not think you should pay taxes on gains?

> If its treated as property then the maximum is 20% of capital gains. if it is _long_ _term_ capital gains. short term gains are taxed at the same rate as regular income.

Long term gains apply to assets held over one year. The rate on such gains for an income under $36000 is ... wait for it ... 0%!

Re: IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

#183

Somebody in the Bitcoin ecosystem would get a lot of attention if they published an authoritative number for the average Bitcoin price in 2013, which would likely suffice for most taxpayers' needs for a reasonable and consistent valuation. (Ask a tax professional if you disbelieve that informal recommendation.) This is one of the many equally valid options for e.g. calculating the yen/USD conversion if you happen to…

Isn't the whole point of saying bitcoin is not currency, but property, that you're not allowed to do this kind of accounting? I'm pretty sure if I buy and sell the same stock throughout the year, I can't simply account for it using the stock's average for the year.

Special rules apply to stocks, principally because the IRS thinks you should have really good records for your cost basis. If you had acquired them through a dividend reinvestment plan (DRIP) average market price over time is exactly what you'd use.

Re: IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

#184

This is exactly why a sales tax would make things so much easier. Who care about historic price points of when you bought and sold BTC, let alone the historic electricity costs and pool fees when you mined it. You buy a milk shake, you pay taxes. Want food, etc. to be taxed differently? Still easier than figuring out if you are operating a railroad/fishing farm in Alaska while running a BTC mining rig to heat your ho…

I am warily a supporter of a national sales tax to replace the income tax, but there are a few problems with it: - Making it non-regressive, let alone as close to progressive as our current system, is damned hard. FAIR Tax-style check-cutting probably isn't enough. - The tax would have to be high enough that black market sales would be extremely tempting. It's comparatively easier to monitor and regulate ~150 million…

I agree. The problems with your point about taxing the workers start at the asymptotes:

150 million workers have relatively little income compared to the top 1% who obtain a very large share of the income. They also have a lot more "tax events" and derive them not from wages but from capital gains.

We currently have 150 million workers and a middle class. Unemployment is going to have to be embraced when one janitor can clean 100,000 sqft building using a few very efficient machines, or a dozen workers can run a car manufacturing facility that produces a new vehicle every 3 seconds. At this level of productivity, which we are going to approach, the form of capitalism that assumes that those unemployed are a fringe group of people between jobs is not going to work. A new system is going to need to be developed, unless population is going to decrease at the same rate as productivity increases.

So the solutions as I see them are:

1. Make the government more productive so the tax wouldn't have to be quite so high. The government uses money in two ways: to run its internal services and to re-distribute the money. The former should be streamlined (making the IRS simple would be along those lines), while the latter can be reigned in by cutting spending to less needed services (e.g.: excessive military spending, tax loop holes, etc.)

2. Make the sales tax progressive by the type of item being sold. This goes hand in hand with your third point and can get complex, but the states already do this: food, clothing, and everything else are all taxed differently. Let's have a 50% tax on tobacco, and a 0.1% tax on food. Note that this is still more efficient than reviewing every single person's return and looking for exceptions.

3. Since the tax is national, there will be less problems than with the state tax in terms of determining where you have presence. Just charge the tax and that's it.

4. Issuing a refund at the end of the year does a person no good if throughout the year they cannot afford to buy food and shelter. To fix this, we need a minimum wage that actually lets someone support themselves. The amount should be re-evaluated yearly or if inflation jumps more than a regular percentage, and should rise with at least inflation. As we approach the productivity asymptote, basic income is going to need to be implemented as well.

Re: IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

#185

I don't see how this law could be enforceable. Hiding bitcoins from the IRS seems to be trivial and lying about the real acquisition value as well. This is very different from stocks where all trades are overseen by the SEC. You can't just go to a neighbor's house and pay for stock in cash without telling anybody else.

Your counter-party could decide the IRS bounty is worth turning you in.

Re: IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If its treated as property then the maximum is 20% of capital gains. Do you not think you should pay taxes on gains?

The lower 20% (Didn't it recently go up to 29%?) rate is only applicable if you have held the asset for 2 years. If you buy and sell short term, as I have, then short-term capital gains applies.

Did they also extend the time? It used to be 1 year and 1 day to qualify for long term capital gains treatment. Or 2 years from the date of the grant of incentive stock options.

Re: IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

#187

I don't see how this law could be enforceable. Hiding bitcoins from the IRS seems to be trivial and lying about the real acquisition value as well. This is very different from stocks where all trades are overseen by the SEC. You can't just go to a neighbor's house and pay for stock in cash without telling anybody else.

Well, the blockchain records all transactions, and when they took place: http://blockr.io/ So if the IRS is auditing you, then it would be easy for them to cross-reference to that.

But until I tie a wallet address with the physical world (like credit card or such), then they have no way of knowing that I own those coins. Also it will not be possible to determine from the blockchain only which amount of USD was paid for the said bitcoins, only that the transaction was on a particular day and that the bitcoins where worth, on average, a certain amount on that day. Furthermore, btc exchanges are not regulated and many are on foreign soil (out of reach by the IRS) so this average is mostly bollocks

Re: IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

#188
post #167

Somebody in the Bitcoin ecosystem would get a lot of attention if they published an authoritative number for the average Bitcoin price in 2013, which would likely suffice for most taxpayers' needs for a reasonable and consistent valuation. (Ask a tax professional if you disbelieve that informal recommendation.) This is one of the many equally valid options for e.g. calculating the yen/USD conversion if you happen to…

http://bitcoinaverage.com/ does currency-adjusted price averages across many exchanges around the world. You should be able to get a yearly average from the API but I worry this would not be what the IRS had in mind, but rather specific prices at time of purchase vs liquidation.

[deleted]

Re: IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

#189
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it says that you are taxed on their value at the time they are mined.

How does this work when mining in a pool is nearly continuous? You earn 0.000000x btc per share in a pool, and you might earn a share every few seconds. What exchange do I use to determine the value of the btc?

Well in the limit it would tend to an integral, and, assuming you have fixed hash power, approach the time and inverse network difficulty weighted average price.

Re: IRS Says Bitcoin Is Property

#190
post #55
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it says that you are taxed on their value at the time they are mined.

Miners are taxed at the time they are mined. This is probably consistent with diamonds.

It seems pretty backwards compared to any other sort of creation. If I build a house, my basis is how much I spent building it, not how much my neighbor's house is worth.
Post reply on HN