It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#171

Post by FLUX-YOU » Mon, Mar 24, 2014, 4:05 AM UTC

Suncho wrote: post #35

jdreaver wrote: post #17

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

I think a lot of the rise in tuition has to do with jobs. Society tells people they need to earn a living through a job. This makes people desperate for jobs to the extent that they'll generally pay whatever it takes to maximize their job prospects. So, basically you have a situation in which demand for the best possible education is inelastic. Pretty much everybody wants it and is willing to pay anything they can fo…

MOOCs will only work if they garner a reputation of providing education relevant to employers or even lead to jobs. Also important are college connections to businesses to facilitate internships. Internships can really make or break you in same cases.

I know most MOOC courses are up to par. I've taken several and the introductory Python programming course at Udacity was more difficult than any of the classes from my arts degree. Right now, a certificate from a MOOC is about as worthless as a certificate I make for myself. I could take those Python skills and do useful things that would make me stand out among other candidates, but that requires a willing ear. Rare exceptions are employers who are actually aware of MOOCs and also favorable to the idea.

I could sell the idea of a MOOC in an interview, even show what I've learned, but getting the interview with MOOC credentials seems very suspect unless you find that aware employer. The idea of MOOCs (free education that leads to employment) threatens colleges, but I don't think the existing MOOCs are currently having an impact on price. When they will begin to have an impact is anyone's guess.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#172

Post by sillysaurus3 » Mon, Mar 24, 2014, 4:18 AM UTC

zymhan wrote: post #168

aspensmonster wrote: post #141

Actually, I think HN user mrxd hit the nail on the head here: >Here's another graph showing that the recent rise in tuition in Michigan is due to declining state education appropriations. > http://i.imgur.com/5gYHQK5.png ==================================== DING DING DING! Why did I have to scroll to the bottom to see this? As far as I'm concerned this is the major symptom that few people ever look at, much less ever…

I had to scroll halfway down the page to find your comment, which still depressed me. As another young 20-something, I always wonder why people are so quick to use the "administrative bloat" or "federal loans" arguments when discussing rising tuition. The data seems to clearly support the relation between state funding and tuition costs, and yet less substantiated claims continue to rise to the top. Do I think colleg…

If all you're paying is $40k in loans for your entire higher education, then you got a pretty good deal in today's economy.

Do I think college administrations could stand to lay off some people? Sure. Does that mean that those extra employees are the reason I'm saddled with $40k in loans? Hell no. If you don't want to pitch in to fund college educations, then fine, but don't act like the reason students are paying more isn't because of you.

The graph http://i.imgur.com/5gYHQK5.png shows that from 2001 to 2012, the revenue per full time student went up by 50% (courses became more expensive), while the state's contribution was reduced by 50% (state is paying less money toward education). So it seems like the data is suggesting that the rising cost of education may be correlated with the state's reduced funding towards education compared to previous years. If so, then the reason students are paying more isn't because of the individual voters or the population in general, but because the way the administrations are allocating the budget.

It seems like the money has to come from somewhere, and politicians are choosing to take it away from education, which causes students to be saddled with ever-higher loans. The reason for that is because it's politically a pretty safe maneuver, because there are much fewer students proportional to the total population, which means politicians will lose proportionally less votes than if they tried to pull the money from something else like healthcare.

There doesn't seem much to be done except to make sure that you're voting and letting their offices know that your vote is going to whomever can stop the education cuts (if that's the topic which is most important to you).

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#173

Post by tjmc » Mon, Mar 24, 2014, 4:22 AM UTC

This isn't true in Australia and many other countries where education costs are more reasonable. I'm in my last semester of a 4 year degree in mechanical engineering. The total tuition cost has been around USD$32K. I've worked the whole way through and will graduate without debt.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#174

Post by avn2109 » Mon, Mar 24, 2014, 4:59 AM UTC

theorique wrote: post #140

traviscj wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's certainly not due to inflation in quality of education. More and more classes are taught by graduate students and adjuncts rather than actual professors (who are mostly focused on their research programs in order to earn tenure). UGH! These kind of comments make me so angry. Sure, lots of graduate students are sub par due to inexperience or distraction or pure, simple busy-ness, but lots and lots of professors…

Fair point. The mere fact of having earned a PhD does not automatically make a person a great teacher, and lacking one does not make a person a bad teacher. I certainly had a few full professors who were phoning it in every class, droning over their 20 year old lecture notes. However, in my undergraduate experience, the most interesting and memorable classes were taught by active professors with many years of teachin…

FWIW my best undergrad classes were taught by endowed lecture chairs, e.g. professors who were paid extra by the university to stop caring about and doing research and instead focus solely on teaching.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#175

Post by primitivesuave » Mon, Mar 24, 2014, 5:09 AM UTC

zodiac wrote: post #150

primitivesuave wrote: post #4

I had a well-paying software internship for most of my time in college, and still left college with ~$30k of debt. Even while making $600/week, it wasn't possible to manage living expenses and tuition payments without taking loans.

Do you mean you were able to do the internship while studying full-time?

Yeah, double major (CS and math) and an internship. It was crazy and really takes a toll on your sleep cycle. I kept sane through a combination of pranayama (yogic breathing exercises) and longboarding everywhere (great cardio).

I still had a great social life- interestingly, most of my roommates and friends in college didn't care for theoretical math and didn't know the first thing about CS.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#176

Post by nerfhammer » Mon, Mar 24, 2014, 5:10 AM UTC

jdreaver wrote: post #17

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

Except that historically the relationship between tuition and funding is inverse!

Decreased funding has gone hand-in-hand with higher tuition.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/a-truly-...

http://i.imgur.com/5gYHQK5.png

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#177

Post by nerfhammer » Mon, Mar 24, 2014, 5:12 AM UTC

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #172

zymhan wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had to scroll halfway down the page to find your comment, which still depressed me. As another young 20-something, I always wonder why people are so quick to use the "administrative bloat" or "federal loans" arguments when discussing rising tuition. The data seems to clearly support the relation between state funding and tuition costs, and yet less substantiated claims continue to rise to the top. Do I think colleg…

If all you're paying is $40k in loans for your entire higher education, then you got a pretty good deal in today's economy. Do I think college administrations could stand to lay off some people? Sure. Does that mean that those extra employees are the reason I'm saddled with $40k in loans? Hell no. If you don't want to pitch in to fund college educations, then fine, but don't act like the reason students are paying mo…

Here's more graphs with more states showing the same trend:

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/a-truly-...

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#178

Post by primitivesuave » Mon, Mar 24, 2014, 5:14 AM UTC

gohrt wrote: post #66

primitivesuave wrote: post #4

I had a well-paying software internship for most of my time in college, and still left college with ~$30k of debt. Even while making $600/week, it wasn't possible to manage living expenses and tuition payments without taking loans.

$30k total debt, to enable your future career, is nothing to be complaining about. That's ~$50/month service.

This is true, but I honestly felt towards the end that I was discovering more on my own, or through my internship, than I was at school. The only justification I got for spending out-of-state-tuition types of money in the last year, was the opportunity to learn from one great professor.

I'm definitely not complaining about $30k, I just wish there was some way I could directly pay one brilliant person like the one great professor, so they could speak at me in an intelligent way and give me new perspective on things that I read in a textbook.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#179

Post by marknutter » Mon, Mar 24, 2014, 5:17 AM UTC

nerfhammer wrote: post #176

jdreaver wrote: post #17

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

Except that historically the relationship between tuition and funding is inverse ! Decreased funding has gone hand-in-hand with higher tuition. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/03/a-truly-... http://i.imgur.com/5gYHQK5.png

A decrease in state funding isn't the same thing as making student loans cheap and easy to obtain. As long as students can keep drawing larger and larger student loans the cost of tuition will continue to rise. After all, the Universities aren't on the hook if the student can't pay back the loan.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#180

Post by SilasX » Mon, Mar 24, 2014, 5:24 AM UTC

ruswick wrote: post #105

jdreaver wrote: post #17

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

Although heavy subsidization is a major enabler of the problem, it is not the only factor. Affordable education is out there. The problem is that people have been conditioned to believe that cheap education is bad education. The problem is the students have been fed the lie that more "prestigious" schools yield better outcomes. Although this might be true in an extreme minority of situations (investment banking is on…

But they're not buying -- or attempting to buy -- education. Rather, they're buying prestige and access to prestigious people, which is a positional good. And you can't simply produce more of a positional good, since it's the ranking that matters, not the absolute quality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positional_good