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It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

randalolson.com

141–150 of 205 posts

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#141
Actually, I think HN user mrxd hit the nail on the head here:

>Here's another graph showing that the recent rise in tuition in Michigan is due to declining state education appropriations.

>http://i.imgur.com/5gYHQK5.png

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DING DING DING! Why did I have to scroll to the bottom to see this? As far as I'm concerned this is the major symptom that few people ever look at, much less ever try to think of a root cause for.

The states, nearly all of which have to "balance the budget" every budget period, have to find ways to make cuts when economic downturns hit. Seeing as so much of what used to be the purview of the state has been captured by the private sector under the guise of "we can do it better, just let us handle it," the only major expense left to the state other than healthcare is education.

When legislatures are faced with a choice of cutting Healthcare or Education, which one do you think is going to get the bigger axe? Which demographic does more voting? The not-of-age children and teenagers? The politically charged college students that paradoxically never seem to actually make it to the voting booth? Their parents perhaps? The same ones that love to hate on public education and talk about how terrible it is? Or... Is it the hundreds of thousands of individuals that rely on the state for medical assistance in one way or another?

It's not a surprise at all that education gets the short end of the stick. It is the politically expedient answer in the face of economic downturns, when already-stretched state social programs are tasked further still. But the real clincher is this: the state legislatures know that the federal government will pick up the tab; it is ultimately the guarantor of the loans it issues. Better yet, since the liabilities were shifted onto the students individually, the state legislatures don't even look like they had to seek the help of the Big Government they're all so keen to hate! And best of all, thanks to the continued infusion of capital from the federal government, their state institutions actually have the outward appearance of growth: new buildings, renovations, fancy stadiums and gyms and elite professors.

Of course, this is all on the backs of young students. And as a young 20-something, I'd like to know why the federal government agreed to balance states' budgets on the backs of its youths at all, much less without price controls. Just who is benefiting from such a laissez-faire attitude? It certainly doesn't feel like I am.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#142

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

> We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive.

I think there is a more simplistic answer to this question.

1. Obama said everyone should go to college. (demand increases)

2. Supply is scarce (we don't have enough good teachers, so people are battling to go to the best university however way - money - possible)

3. If demand increases, and supplies decrease, it means price elasticity expands (prices go up)

4. Right now we are trying to increase supply but are struggling (MOOC's will save us!)

So let's all go back to the beginning now and ask ourselves "Why does everyone need to go to college?" I think that's the real question to be answered here.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#143

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

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Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#145
post #2

I bet half the audience sees this as an indictment of tuition increases, and the the other half sees this as an indictment of the lack of minimum wage increases. I know what the author is trying to convey, but I'm not sure he has the best metric.

I see it as another sign that colleges are ripe for a shake up. Colleges offer five things (from an academic point of view): 1. Access to information. 2. Directed learning. 3. Time to explore your own interests. 4. Research facilities. 5. Qualifications. Access to information is easy enough outside college (books, Internet, etc...). Lack of research facilities is only really a hindrance if you're trying to study a ha…

You left out physical access to peers. We formed study groups, and meeting in person to discuss and work through problem sets can be much more effective than mediated through telepresence. It would have been harder for me to graduate without that.

It's also hard to get a degree in most arts (eg. fine arts, dance, drama, and music) without physical interactions and without access to the physical resources that a university can provide. Yet that doesn't fall under any of your 5 categories. Perhaps #4 is the closest, but you argue that it's only really relevant to hard science or engineering.

Your last bit sounds more utopian than with basis in reality. I don't see why it's any harder to contact leading lights in chemistry, biology, mathematics, philosophy, history, or poetry than it is hackers. Nor do I believe many of those leading lights - hackers included - really want to engage in much unpaid "learning opportunity" to strangers.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#146

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

Universities these days are sitting on huge cash reserves. And then also look at how much cash is being spent on new buildings. Buildings at Stanford were torn down are less than 8 years old.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#147
post #143

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

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I don't know if you were being facetious or not, but both Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg were college dropouts. And of course there is the fact that most people who do graduate college don't make nearly the amount of money that those two did.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#148
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, few students get much free money these days. Instead they get loans which charge hefty origination fees - like 5 points, and which are almost impossible to discharge via bankruptcy...despite the fact that many of them are backed by insurance and those which are not insured typically compound interest during the time the student is in school (typically on the full principle). The bloat has not been fueled b…

Don't forget that this debt is massively subsidized by government. Do you think a bank would give a traditional loan for hundreds of thousands of dollars to a middle-class student straight out of high school pursuing a Bachelor's Degree in, say, history?

There's a $57,500 lifetime limit on federal student loans for undergraduates. The people you see on the news complaining about their $200,000 english degree debt are people who have rich family who cosigned a bunch of private loans for them. (And who will make the loan payments when the english graduate inevitably can't.)

With federal loans, you can only take out at most $5,500/year as an 18 year old, which doesn't do a lot. Cost of attendance in my home state is $20,000/year, so that's about 25% of what you need to go.

http://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/subsidized-unsubsidized...

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#149

We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive. When some people read articles like this, they call for more government aid to students. "We need to help young, hard working students from unprivileged backgrounds to pay for college!" Their hearts are certainly in the right place, and it isn't an unreasonable idea at first glance. However, could this idea be part of the problem? Maybe giving people free money fo…

> We have to ask ourselves why college is so expensive.

In the US at least, my understanding is that it's relatively easy for college students to get loans to pay for their education (I have several US citizens friends who did that and repaid their loans over the years), so this amounts to easy credit. When free money is available, prices tend to go up, and the more government steps in to provide low rates kind of loans to students, the more the universities can increase and inflate their prices because the supply of cheap credit increases. It's a well known mechanism in economics.

Re: It’s impossible to work your way through college nowadays

#150

I had a well-paying software internship for most of my time in college, and still left college with ~$30k of debt. Even while making $600/week, it wasn't possible to manage living expenses and tuition payments without taking loans.

Do you mean you were able to do the internship while studying full-time?
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