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What You Can't Say (2004)

paulgraham.com

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Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#261

Post by ivanca »

mwfunk wrote: post #257
Russell91 wrote: post #98

The true genius of this essay is that it gives to the reader a sense that every controversial idea they believe is indeed correct.

That's what I'm seeing here. Very little discussion on the article, lots of people posting lists of things they feel persecuted for believing, with the implication being that they're sitting there drumming their fingers and waiting to be validated by history. Oh, and other people arguing with them about those things. Hooray for the Internet I guess? :)

And of course there is the meta discussion where they feel superior for analyzing the behavior of the crowd and pretending that discussing random controversial matters is a childish behavior.

Hooray for internet I'm sure (not guess).

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#263

Post by arbitrarywords »

tunesmith wrote: post #258
arbitrarywords wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Islam Muslim is completely false, curious as to how you would define the term?

That improperly restates my rebuttal. I'm not saying that Islam is never Muslim or vice versa. He's making the forall statement, not me. I'm saying that it's completely false that "The only way that Muslims can reasonably be said to exist as a group is in terms of their adherence to the doctrine of Islam". Trivially refuted since he's making a ∀ statement. You only have to find a ∃ to refute it. Google "cultural musl…

Well the impression I get is the idea of a "cultural" muslim is contested from both within and without the muslim community so I don't think it's quite that clear cut. Who gets to own the labels seems to always be a political battle. You could argue that it is only "reasonable" to use the label for those who hold the beliefs.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#264

Post by ivanca »

Russell91 wrote: post #98

The true genius of this essay is that it gives to the reader a sense that every controversial idea they believe is indeed correct.

Nope, every one already had a sense of that because otherwise they wouldn't have them; plus controversial ideas are harder to hold on to.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#265

Post by whatevsbro »

This seems timely in light of the new "pending comments" system.

What it boils down to, is comments being censored by default, until they're possibly uncensored by group-think. As if the community needed a narrower focus on supporting Basic Income and other misguided but popular ideas.

The effect will be silencing unharmonious views, which seems like something the author of "What You Can't Say" would see. Maybe silencing dissent is the goal here. I don't expect (m)any of my own comments to get uncensored.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#266

Post by whatevsbro »

dxbydt wrote: post #49
mef wrote: post #25

Let's start with a test: Do you have any opinions that you would be reluctant to express in front of a group of your peers? If the answer is no, you might want to stop and think about that. If everything you believe is something you're supposed to believe, could that possibly be a coincidence? Odds are it isn't. Odds are you just think whatever you're told. The other alternative would be that you independently consid…

Answer to your question: michaelochurch ?

.. and other(?) Aspies, such as myself.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#267

Post by MarkTee »

ivanca wrote: post #260
tunesmith wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never ready anything by Sam Harris that I've considered to be rational and well-reasoned. The guy's whole schtick seems to be making arguments that are valid but unsound. Here his premise is "But the only way that Muslims can reasonably be said to exist as a group is in terms of their adherence to the doctrine of Islam," which is completely false. He implies that anyone who practices Islam is "deeply committed t…

>that people who practice Islamophobia are targeting people by their beliefs, when in reality they will target them by their headwear Are you proposing that they should read minds? As far as I know that's not possible so this statement is preposterous, of course they are going to target by the headgear/skin-color, is the only way they can determine who is Islamic and who is not; being bad at it is a different matter.

Reread the comment you're replying to; that's exactly what he's saying.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#268

Post by MarkTee »

arbitrarywords wrote: post #263
tunesmith wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That improperly restates my rebuttal. I'm not saying that Islam is never Muslim or vice versa. He's making the forall statement, not me. I'm saying that it's completely false that "The only way that Muslims can reasonably be said to exist as a group is in terms of their adherence to the doctrine of Islam". Trivially refuted since he's making a ∀ statement. You only have to find a ∃ to refute it. Google "cultural musl…

Well the impression I get is the idea of a "cultural" muslim is contested from both within and without the muslim community so I don't think it's quite that clear cut. Who gets to own the labels seems to always be a political battle. You could argue that it is only "reasonable" to use the label for those who hold the beliefs.

No true Scotsman

How do you decide who owns the "right" beliefs? By that logic, who can we consider to be a Christian?

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#269

Post by epsylon »

coolsunglasses wrote: post #108
ggreer wrote: post #68

Here are some things I think future societies will condemn us for: 1. Prison. Almost every modern penal system focuses on punishment rather than rehabilitation. I think that as our understanding of the brain improves, we'll be able to find the causes of violent behavior and cure them. Punishment will become cruel and unusual. 2. Eating meat (and other animal rights issues). Even if they're not conscious, most tasty a…

#1 is only partly correct insofar as some people that can be helped. Sociopathy is permanent and uncurable. It's also common among people with a criminal record. Sifting those out from otherwise lost but psychonormal individuals is not trivial.

> Sociopathy is permanent and uncurable. It's also common among people with a criminal record.

Also common among CEOs and politicians. See? Being a sociopath doesn't automatically make you a murderer!

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#270

Post by mantrax »

icebraining wrote: post #187
mantrax wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Prison. The philosophy of prison as punishment is wrong, but the idea of keeping a murderer isolated from potential victims isn't. So don't throw out the baby with the bath water. 2. Animals, just like humans, die. There's no way around it. Even if the entire world decides not to eat a particular goat, that goat will die. And when an animal dies, it gets eaten - no exception. Either by microorganisms, or higher le…

2. Is true, but if you have to wait around for the goat to die of old age or sickness, that doesn't make for a particularly healthy meat business. And killing it is not justifiable simply by the fact that eventually it would die anyway.

In nature most animals do not die of old age or sickness. In fact, dying of old age or sickness is the most horrifying and prolonged death possible for any life form. It's torture. Being hunted and dead in the span of hours, or even minutes is far more "humane" (I hate the etymology of this word).

Preserving an animal's life artificially until it's so old it dies from its age is what is actually unnatural (also see the original point 3). So the focus should not be on extending an animal's life length, but improving those animals' life quality.

And actually if you would replace "animal" with "human" in anything I say, it still applies. This is how you know I'm not discriminating against an animal's life. Which would be pure ignorance.

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