Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

It Is Time For Basic Income

hawkins.ventures

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

281–290 of 761 posts

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#281

Post by bryanlarsen »

ekianjo wrote: post #251
marcosdumay wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basic income means taxing people with income, and redistributing it to everybody. Where did you get the idea that disposable income increases for everyone? How could that be even possible?

> Where did you get the idea that disposable income increases for everyone? How could that be even possible? The government could be printing money to make that possible, as well, instead of financing it through taxes only.

Printing money causes inflation, which is effectively a wealth tax.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#282

Post by dragonwriter »

zaidos wrote: post #141

Wouldn't businesses just raise prices to offset the basic income, rendering it useless?

> Wouldn't businesses just raise prices to offset the basic income, rendering it useless?

Assuming a competitive market, which is a decent assumption overall though clearly there are good for which it doesn't work, an increase in demand (which is what more money going to people more likely to spend it does) should result in an increase in price smaller in proportion than the increase in income and an increase in the quantity of goods sold. So, yes, you'd expect some inflation, but not so much (at any level) as to render the increased income useless.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#283

Post by ahomescu1 »

FD3SA wrote: post #253
ahomescu1 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should also look at it from the other side: if I have a job that I work at 8-10 hours a day (and might not do if I didn't need the money), how am I "punishing" the other guy by not sharing the fruits of my labor with him for nothing in return? EDIT: To put it another way: if I'm a productive worker and have a job, I am "rewarded" by working for a boss (taking orders from him/her), and having to turn over 35-50% o…

The correct answer here is that you are not valuing your opportunity costs highly enough. If you are working 8-10 hours a day, you should be making an incredible surplus. People in ancient societies worked less, and managed to survive just fine. With the technology available today, you could be making millions of dollars of surplus value, if given the opportunity. All you would need is the time to experiment with you…

Actually, I was arguing against the idea that society is punishing people who can't find a job.

Personally, I'd love to get BI. That would free me to work only on what I like, or not work at all when I don't want to.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#284

Post by ghx »

This sounds kind of like the earned income tax credit, which is basically a reverse tax (if you don't make enough to pay taxes, you get a subsidy instead): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit

Expanding EITC substantially would be politically easier than attempting to do this, since it already exists and has bipartisan support (as opposed to raising the minimum wage). You need some sort of job for the EITC, though.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#285

Post by orthecreedence »

adharmad wrote: post #168
whyme wrote: post #48

Obviously this is not a new idea... Twenty years ago I sat around with college mates, in Canada, listing the merits of the "Guaranteed Income" and quite frankly I still support the idea today. If you took all the salaries, property and operations cost associated with distributing old age security, welfare, disability, unemployment wages etc etc, it would probably pay for much of the cost associated with the Guarantee…

And where will the source for the Guaranteed Income come from? It will surely be taxes - income, sales, other. All taxes in some way or the other depend on the state of the economy. What if the economy goes into a recession or has severe fluctuations from year to year? Will "Guaranteed Income" be continued if there isn't sufficient wealth and production to pay for it? Ultimately, it is another form of "spending other…

Yet, somehow, welfare, food stamps, medicaid, social security, etc etc etc still keep writing checks when the economy is down. Ok, so wipe all those out (including the significant overhead of running each one by its own, separate organization), and send the checks to everyone who's a citizen.

> Ultimately, it is another form of "spending other people's money" which runs out at some point or the other.

This is already happening. See above. It doesn't run out if you have a functioning economy. I'd also argue that GBI would make the economy function a lot better by opening up business opportunities to those who don't have access currently.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#286

Post by jbuzbee »

nattaylor wrote: post #215
fishtoaster wrote: post #163

I haven't read much on BI, so I'm sure this has already been answered already, but: how do the numbers add up? The US poverty line for a single person is $11k. For simplicity, let's say BI gives everyone in the US $10k per year. Times 313.9 million, that's $3.1 trillion per year. The US government spent, overall, $3.45 trillion in 2013. How would we be able to afford basic income?

I didn't RTFA, but if you instead assume it just goes to adults (~221M) then that's $2.2T. I think BI gets rid of SS/Medicare/Medicaid/etc, which gets you back roughly $2T.

In 2012 Medicare, Medicaid, and Children's health funding was $732 billion. And I don't know how you get rid of SS since the government would still need to make payments that are higher than any typical basic income level.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=1258

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#287

Post by EGreg »

ekianjo wrote: post #256
jgj wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free from wage slavery, citizens receiving basic income could spend time producing their own commodities. They could learn trades not to use in a career, but to reduce their dependency on others. I also think the premise that prices would rise and create a GBI death-spiral is far from guaranteed. With a GBI behind them, citizens could potentially be more likely to start their own businesses, increasing competition an…

> wage slavery Having a wage, is by definition, not being treated like a slave. Plus, in most countries you get a wage AND you are free to look for jobs everywhere around you, and to get them. Unless you mean that the concept of having to do something to earn a living is actually akin to slavery, but I'd rather say it's common sense. Even from a personal standpoint, most people would not really feel good to be paid t…

I think wage slavery refers more correctly to the condition many people find themselves in, where they cannot afford the switching costs to find another employer or educate themselves for another career. Perhaps they have a family to support or have basic needs, thus through market discipline they are forced to work in the same conditions.

In other words, although they are getting paid, they are getting paid just enough to live paycheck-to-paycheck, and they can no more be a free labor market participant than a slave.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#288

Post by orthecreedence »

Noxchi wrote: post #267
rcoder wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think "working-age adult" (perhaps even "household") not "individual". Also, assume that taxes will reclaim that basic income from folks making significantly more than the poverty line. According to Wikipedia, only the bottom quartile of the US population earns less than $22500 per household; if you assume that BI isn't simply added on tax-free to higher-earning households' net income, that makes it more like 1/4 of…

So take from the rich and give to the poor.

No, take from everyone and give to everyone. In a non-biased way. Hey, the rich get their $1k check every month too.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#289

Post by jgj »

ekianjo wrote: post #256
jgj wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free from wage slavery, citizens receiving basic income could spend time producing their own commodities. They could learn trades not to use in a career, but to reduce their dependency on others. I also think the premise that prices would rise and create a GBI death-spiral is far from guaranteed. With a GBI behind them, citizens could potentially be more likely to start their own businesses, increasing competition an…

> wage slavery Having a wage, is by definition, not being treated like a slave. Plus, in most countries you get a wage AND you are free to look for jobs everywhere around you, and to get them. Unless you mean that the concept of having to do something to earn a living is actually akin to slavery, but I'd rather say it's common sense. Even from a personal standpoint, most people would not really feel good to be paid t…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery

> in most countries you get a wage AND you are free to look for jobs everywhere around you, and to get them

At some point, there will not be enough jobs to keep everyone gainfully employed doing meaningful work (in even the loosest sense of the word). With a basic income, rather than having immense swaths of poverty, each person would have the freedom of any pursuit they desire. For many, this would be some form of productive work.

> Even from a personal standpoint, most people would not really feel good to be paid to do nothing.

This is a thought process very much a product of our current socio-economic environment, where you are told that you are worth the work you put in. But when there is nothing to do, how can you argue with being paid to do nothing?

Furthermore, it is disingenuous to call it being "paid to do nothing". You are being paid a wage directly, unconditionally, but there is nothing forcing you to do nothing. You are free to do anything the law affords.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#290

Post by mamcx »

This will not break, for example, because everyone know that everyone must be able to pay higher rents? Where I live (Colombia) if the basic income become 5% at the start of the year then everything is 5-10% more costly.

If I get (fixed) 100/month and everyone else too, then the rent will be (surely) X+100. This is happening now, the economy is accelerating and everything is rising up.

Post reply on HN