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It Is Time For Basic Income

hawkins.ventures

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Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#211

Post by [deleted] »

encoderer wrote: post #106
Retric wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To make things simple let's assume a flat tax of 20% pays a 10k per year basic income. Someone making 0k ends up with .8 * 0k + 10k = 10k. Someone making 10k ends up with .8 * 10k + 10k = 18k. Someone making 50k ends up with .8 * 50k + 10k = 50k. Someone making 100k ends up with .8 * 100k + 10k = 90k. Someone making 200k ends up with .8 * 200k + 10k = 170k. Thus the only people that get the full amount are those who…

US Personal income is about $13tn, so a 20% flat tax would currently provide about $8500/yr basic income. And that, of course, is on top of our current government spending. Also I'm not sure what you'd do w/ payroll taxes. You're just grossly understating what tax rates would have to be to accommodate this. You think there will be economies of scale that SS today doesn't already achieve that could somehow offset this…

[deleted]

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#212

Post by alexeisadeski3 »

IgorPartola wrote: post #193
alexeisadeski3 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Firing government workers in droves does not in fact lead to poverty. Example: Release of hundreds of thousands of conscript soldiers after WWII. Many economists predicted catastrophe. This did not happen. 2. Elderly health care: You legalize private cheap insurance for the elderly. The poor elderly can use that. The non-poor elderly can get fancier coverage should they so choose.

Is cheap private insurance illegal now? Is that why my premiums are so outrageous? Insurance is not like a car: there are no luxury and budget brands. Either you can afford premiums + costs not covered or you cannot. Not going to the doctor is not an option: the physiology of a poor person is the same as that of a rich person. The treatment therefore is the same. Thus what you are proposing is basically legalizing le…

An alternative would be to increase the money from $10k to $15k at some age.

>Is cheap private insurance illegal now? Is that why my premiums are so outrageous?

Yes and yes.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#213

Post by hmsimha »

fishtoaster wrote: post #163

I haven't read much on BI, so I'm sure this has already been answered already, but: how do the numbers add up? The US poverty line for a single person is $11k. For simplicity, let's say BI gives everyone in the US $10k per year. Times 313.9 million, that's $3.1 trillion per year. The US government spent, overall, $3.45 trillion in 2013. How would we be able to afford basic income?

I'm guessing we would only need to divert a fraction of the money currently being used on weaponry and military to cover the difference.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#215

Post by nattaylor »

fishtoaster wrote: post #163

I haven't read much on BI, so I'm sure this has already been answered already, but: how do the numbers add up? The US poverty line for a single person is $11k. For simplicity, let's say BI gives everyone in the US $10k per year. Times 313.9 million, that's $3.1 trillion per year. The US government spent, overall, $3.45 trillion in 2013. How would we be able to afford basic income?

I didn't RTFA, but if you instead assume it just goes to adults (~221M) then that's $2.2T. I think BI gets rid of SS/Medicare/Medicaid/etc, which gets you back roughly $2T.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#216

Post by marcosdumay »

ekianjo wrote: post #188
FD3SA wrote: post #180

Basic income is the first step to an empirically ethical society, which accounts for inherent human limitations and behaviors. Evolution is an extremely feckless game, and thus far we've been trapped by its whims, endlessly struggling in a free-for-all battle for survival. In order to transcend and escape our evolutionary origins, we will first and foremost need to understand ourselves. How we came to be, what behavi…

> Basic income is the first step to an empirically ethical society Not sure, but wouldn't basic income induce increased prices for commodities? If disposable income increases for everyone, then there is an incentive to increase prices everywhere (including accommodation which is a significant part of monthly expenses), thus negating the positive effects of basic income. Then you know what would happen next... people…

Basic income means taxing people with income, and redistributing it to everybody.

Where did you get the idea that disposable income increases for everyone? How could that be even possible?

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#217

Post by buzaga41 »

xymostech wrote: post #42
jaredgeorge wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is why the model would not work. I don't believe that there are enough people who would find fulfillment in flipping burgers, unclogging toilets, roofing in AZ in July...

Well, then McDonalds can offer more money to work there. Obviously, McDonalds wants to stay in business, so it has to offer up some incentive to get people to work for them. If they offer enough money, there will certainly be people who would work to flip burgers. The jobs' salaries match what they are actually worth, and can't be offered as minimum-wage jobs that people take because they don't have any money and can…

not to mention mc donalds business would probably boost since now everybody can afford to have some junk food if they feel like it, paying some more wouldn't be a problem, I imagine.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#218

Post by jgj »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #206
jgj wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the mystical future world where a GBI has been implemented charity still exists, and much of the capital once dedicated to assisting those in poverty-absent-illness can now be directed to those who need help in addition to the GBI.

But if charity were reliable enough to rely on for livelihood wouldn't it make sense to remove any form of welfare or basic income?

I think the reliability of charity in this case would increase as the number of people who need it decrease. I don't think we can rely on charity to solve everyone's financial woes, else said woes would already be solved. But when the percentage of people in need of charity grows smaller, the impact of the same pool of charity increases for those left in need.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#219

Post by dinkumthinkum »

saraid216 wrote: post #196
ekianjo wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basic income is the first step to an empirically ethical society Not sure, but wouldn't basic income induce increased prices for commodities? If disposable income increases for everyone, then there is an incentive to increase prices everywhere (including accommodation which is a significant part of monthly expenses), thus negating the positive effects of basic income. Then you know what would happen next... people…

Whether or not that's true, that doesn't actually respond to the part you're quoting. Unless you're arguing that an empirically ethical society is not possible?

Well if it causes inflation then it calls into question whether it really is a "first step."

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#220

Post by tsotha »

assface wrote: post #165
ahomescu1 wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should also look at it from the other side: if I have a job that I work at 8-10 hours a day (and might not do if I didn't need the money), how am I "punishing" the other guy by not sharing the fruits of my labor with him for nothing in return? EDIT: To put it another way: if I'm a productive worker and have a job, I am "rewarded" by working for a boss (taking orders from him/her), and having to turn over 35-50% o…

Because you don't live in a vacuum. Our society makes it possible so that you can earn a living. You're just paying back for having that opportunity to those that are less fortunate.

>Because you don't live in a vacuum. Our society makes it possible so that you can earn a living.

This argument doesn't hold water for me. Society makes it possible for everyone to earn a living, so people who aren't doing it should start.

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