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It Is Time For Basic Income

hawkins.ventures

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Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#71

Post by mulligan »

cordite wrote: post #68

I support the idea, but there are other things that have to go with it in order to really work and not end up like the broken economy that Argentina had to put up with when doing something similar. It would need serious tax reform, changes to how business are treated locally and internationally. One suggestion for tax reform is to apply taxes strictly on only sales tax, not income tax. Certain property taxes may stil…

Can you explain what you see as the problem and why the solution to that problem is not to tax income?

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#72

Post by [deleted] »

whyme wrote: post #48

Obviously this is not a new idea... Twenty years ago I sat around with college mates, in Canada, listing the merits of the "Guaranteed Income" and quite frankly I still support the idea today. If you took all the salaries, property and operations cost associated with distributing old age security, welfare, disability, unemployment wages etc etc, it would probably pay for much of the cost associated with the Guarantee…

[deleted]

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#73

Post by karmicthreat »

krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

Money is a sign of poverty so I wouldn't expect basic income to really fix the welfare problem either. It would alleviate some issues for some people but I agree inflation would just eat any benefit the income offered. The same way inflation ate any benefit minimum wage offered.

I don't think anything other than an economic and social Ragnarök is going to fix the poverty problem. Both capitalism and socialism don't seem to have the answers.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#74

Post by praxulus »

baddox wrote: post #40
robobenjie wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It replaces minimum wage in that McDonalds is welcome to offer a job flipping burgers for $1 an hour if they want. However, because no one _needs_ a job to live (because they can just live on the basic income) someone would only take that job if it was worth it/fulfilling to them.

> However, because no one _needs_ a job to live (because they can just live on the basic income) Well, someone needs a job for the system to work, since it's presumably funded by taxation. At least one person (more realistically, a large portion of the population) still needs to be creating wealth.

It could balance itself out. If not enough people work, BI will drop and some of the people on BI will decide it's worth getting a job to live more comfortably.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#76

Post by encoderer »

krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

During boom times, yes. During those times I think we would reduce it -- but not eliminate it -- or severely means-test it. But when the economy is not performing efficiently -- the way things are now for example -- this will do nothing but increase aggregate demand.

Think about inflation like this: More bidders for the same goods and services. Well, right now there are goods and services on the sidelines.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#77

Post by MrZongle2 »

So let's assume this was implemented.

Some citizens, with their guaranteed basic income, will spend it wisely to cover their needs...as envisioned by proponents of this approach.

Others, however, will waste their income and again find themselves short of what is necessary to cover their needs.

What then? Simply increase the amount of basic income awarded, and hope that by throwing more money at the symptoms of poverty, the cause will be addressed?

And where does this money come from? Not immediately, of course, but 5-10 years down the road once society has been changed by this policy's implementation? Why would the financial engines of today, which could theoretically fund such an endeavor, continue to run as efficiently in the future?

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#78

Post by baddox »

dicroce wrote: post #69

Here's the thing: I believe that millions of years of evolution have baked into every living thing a deep need to work, and we'll feel bad if we don't (because for millions of years lazyness meant death). We need to struggle. Further, I think we need to bad times to help us recognize the good times and a basic income would do much to soften those bad times... I worry that Basic Income is in the long term practically…

> I believe that millions of years of evolution have baked into every living thing a deep need to work, and we'll feel bad if we don't (because for millions of years lazyness meant death). We need to struggle.

I think there is a difference between "work" that fulfills our desire to dedicate time and effort toward challenging endeavors and "work" that creates sufficient net value to keep oneself alive (or in the case of a redistributive society, to keep society as a whole alive).

And yes, I think this even applies to people who do jobs that align very closely with their passions, like many computer programmers. My argument isn't that passionate programmers wouldn't continue programming if they had no need for a wage, but rather that they would do precisely the parts of programming they enjoy.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#79

Post by justinmk »

whyme wrote: post #48

Obviously this is not a new idea... Twenty years ago I sat around with college mates, in Canada, listing the merits of the "Guaranteed Income" and quite frankly I still support the idea today. If you took all the salaries, property and operations cost associated with distributing old age security, welfare, disability, unemployment wages etc etc, it would probably pay for much of the cost associated with the Guarantee…

> The real solution is to move to a resource managed economy that eliminates money all together

So, rationing? I wonder if that's been tried before.

Money is a repesentation of resources. And resources cannot be allocated efficiently by central authority, because of the calculation problem[1]. But maybe some college dorm discussions will bear some other solution.

[1] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#80

Post by MartinCron »

tomphoolery wrote: post #64

Providing a basic income for all people, regardless of their merit to the society as a whole, is problematic. It's not enough to just hand over a couple hundred dollars to someone and say "have fun". We need to ensure everyone is getting the proper basic services, first. I'm talking about shelter, food, water, and a basis for living comfortably. We have the resources to do this, today. We just don't have the distribu…

I agree. Meeting basic human needs through other means seems to be a necessary prerequisite to basic income.
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