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It Is Time For Basic Income

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Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#51

Post by julespitt »

dlubarov wrote: post #36
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #25

If anything like basic income happens expect immigration to be halted and birthright citizenship grants to be ended. The value and meaning of citizenship will rapidly change and tolerance for outsiders taking a slice of the pie will rapidly plunge. I think there will be a lot of ramifications like this that most people probably aren't considering.

But the pie grows larger as more people enter the economy (though it may be sublinear).

Definitely true, it's just that people don't know that or want to believe it.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#52

Post by enraged_camel »

avmich wrote: post #43
benched wrote: post #22

The idea that you absolutely must work hard in exchange for the necessities of your life, is so deeply ingrained in our collective consciousness, like a fundamental law of conservation, that it seems a lot of people cannot conceive otherwise.

Twenty years ago a lot of people couldn't see themselves using a cellphone or an Internet.

I think this is different, though. They did not have any moral objections to cellphones or Internet. They simply lacked imagination.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#53

Post by api »

benched wrote: post #22

The idea that you absolutely must work hard in exchange for the necessities of your life, is so deeply ingrained in our collective consciousness, like a fundamental law of conservation, that it seems a lot of people cannot conceive otherwise.

I think the real fallacy beneath the surface is that if we do something like this people will just totally stop working.

A few will, but most will use their newfound flexibility to shift what they work on: explore other career options, create art and culture, etc. Overall there will likely be a lot more entrepreneurship, invention, science, art, literature, and music.

It's tied into the far right's religious-based doctrine of original sin view of humanity: we are miserable evil disgusting monsters who must be beaten and cudgeled into exhibiting any form of virtue. If it weren't for life-or-death struggle we would all sit around, drink beer, play video games, and probably screw goats. It's the same mentality behind strict physical discipline of children... if you spare the rod, the kid will grow up to be lazy or a monster.

Besides, the people who would completely stop working are the lazy people nobody would want to hire in the first place. You're not losing much by taking those folks out of the work force.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#54

Post by sukuriant »

I've read this thread; and I think my biggest hope here is the realization in the bureaucrats that are afraid of losing their job ... that they'll be getting money anyway because the basic income will provide their money now.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#55

Post by noonespecial »

krazydad wrote: post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

The desired end-game here is that no one needs to work at McDonalds at all. Basic income goes hand in hand with the massive productivity gains that technology has and will bring. We somehow have to match up nobody needing to work anymore (to produce) with nobody having to (to live).

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#56

Post by maxsilver »

baddox wrote: post #40
robobenjie wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It replaces minimum wage in that McDonalds is welcome to offer a job flipping burgers for $1 an hour if they want. However, because no one _needs_ a job to live (because they can just live on the basic income) someone would only take that job if it was worth it/fulfilling to them.

> However, because no one _needs_ a job to live (because they can just live on the basic income) Well, someone needs a job for the system to work, since it's presumably funded by taxation. At least one person (more realistically, a large portion of the population) still needs to be creating wealth.

>someone needs a job

I don't know that we necessarily need to have jobs.

We could fund it by taxation of revenue and wages, rather than just wages.

A company who fires all it's employees, and uses only robots, would see a huge surge in profit from reduced overhead. That profit could be taxed at something like 60%.

The owner(s) of the business still see windfall from the cost savings of laying everyone off, and the basic income now rises for everyone and can now cover the lost wages of the newly unemployed, using the companies new profits as a funding source

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#57

Post by Adam503 »

lukasm wrote: post #17

bureaucratic overhead with proper tech is close to zero. Basic Icome is too a big leap in social and political context. I am very much in favour of Minimal Activity proposition. It's way more easier to implement.

There is no way to reduce corruption in society without regulations and bureaucracy.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#59

Post by a8da6b0c91d »

julespitt wrote: post #51
dlubarov wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the pie grows larger as more people enter the economy (though it may be sublinear).

Definitely true, it's just that people don't know that or want to believe it.

Every attempt at analyzing this for the US economy I have seen concludes that immigration is at best a wash for the people who were already US citizens. It does, however, have the effect of worsening income disparity. Capital benefits while low income wages are driven down. Of course one also has to consider environmental costs.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#60

Post by japhyr »

derefr wrote: post #47
a8da6b0c91d wrote: post #25

If anything like basic income happens expect immigration to be halted and birthright citizenship grants to be ended. The value and meaning of citizenship will rapidly change and tolerance for outsiders taking a slice of the pie will rapidly plunge. I think there will be a lot of ramifications like this that most people probably aren't considering.

Alaska has its Permanent Fund Dividend, which is a kind of basic income coming from state oil sales. How hard is it to get Alaskan citizenship?

You have to live here for a full calendar year before you can apply for the dividend. Even then, the dividend is only $800-$1200 per year, hardly enough to offset the higher cost of living in AK.
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