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It Is Time For Basic Income

hawkins.ventures

41–50 of 761 posts

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#41
post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

If the fixed income came from newly-printed money then yes, it would cause inflation. If it came from taxes then no, it would not cause inflation in and of itself.

In both cases, it would increase the purchasing power of the poor and reduce the purchasing power of the rich, because $5000 means more to somebody making $10000 than it does to somebody making $1000000.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It replaces minimum wage in that McDonalds is welcome to offer a job flipping burgers for $1 an hour if they want. However, because no one _needs_ a job to live (because they can just live on the basic income) someone would only take that job if it was worth it/fulfilling to them.

And this is why the model would not work. I don't believe that there are enough people who would find fulfillment in flipping burgers, unclogging toilets, roofing in AZ in July...

Well, then McDonalds can offer more money to work there. Obviously, McDonalds wants to stay in business, so it has to offer up some incentive to get people to work for them. If they offer enough money, there will certainly be people who would work to flip burgers.

The jobs' salaries match what they are actually worth, and can't be offered as minimum-wage jobs that people take because they don't have any money and can't get a job elsewhere.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#43
post #22

The idea that you absolutely must work hard in exchange for the necessities of your life, is so deeply ingrained in our collective consciousness, like a fundamental law of conservation, that it seems a lot of people cannot conceive otherwise.

Twenty years ago a lot of people couldn't see themselves using a cellphone or an Internet.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#44
post #2

I am not at all an economist, but I wonder: if everyone had the same amount of fixed income (in addition to whatever else they made from their jobs), wouldn't there be continual inflation, rendering that money worthless? Wouldn't the fixed income become the new zero income? Also: How does Macdonalds work in this situation, if the fixed income "replaces" minimum wage. Does Macdonalds pay on top of this wage? Do they d…

There are many huge cultural and socioeconomic implication of Basic Income.

Inflation is dependent on money supply, you don't need to print new money to apply basic income. You would worry as much of its inflation impact as you would for bailing out banks, if its the same printing. Its not a BI specific concern. Pricing, on the other hand, would probably change drastically, as there would probably be a solid market of goods for people that want to get by with BI alone, so essentials will probably be priced to fit perfectly with BI.

On the second point: Basic Income is guaranteed, regardless of other jobs. So you would work at McDonalds if you wanted more money. Otherwise it creates the perverse incentive not to work which you described.

BI could be nefarious or the savior socioeconomic rule, and it deserves experimentation.

Personally, I find its socio-economic impacts the most interesting and important in shaping a society. With BI, the jobs nobody wants to do will experience a reverse Supply/Demand.

Cleaning toilets today is cheap because you have enough people that need it to survive: when they dont need it anymore, the supply for those jobs will plummet, and suddenly they will start earning way more money. I find this to be such a strong positive force that this alone justifies doing BI to me.

Also, it will very quickly destroy crime. Petty theft and small crimes have no reason to exist anymore, since you dont need to steal to eat or to try to get out of a desperate situation. Specially if being in Jail means you dont get your BI (because its used for prison budgets) it creates a magnificent economical incentive not to do crime and to get out of jail as fast as you can. Organized crime like drug dealers would likely plummet as well: as most organizations they are heavily pyramidal and require a vast number of poor people to work for peanuts and take all the risk. Take them away, and they have no supply chain, so even large organizations will get wrecked quickly. Suddenly, White-collar crime goes way higher in the scale of important.

In terms of society education, you will prevent and help millions of people to be able to pursue education without having to sacrifice it to make ends meet.

Another strongly positive force is to eliminate government "fat". Firing government employees that are useless or provide little value is a very politically expensive move no-one makes, because nobody wants to throw people on the street. Now, this is not the street anymore, they have a strong safety net so we can stop worrying about politics and focus on making things productive.

I clearly see a lot of potential on BI, and I also appreciate it could have devastating downsides. But thats what experimentation is all about finding out.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#45
post #34

So what should the basic income be? $10k/yr? 20k? 50k? 100k?

It should be tied to some indexes that reflect the cost of living. If it's impossible to actually live a very minimal life on the basic income, there's not much point, as you'll still have to work and be under stress about making ends meet.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It replaces minimum wage in that McDonalds is welcome to offer a job flipping burgers for $1 an hour if they want. However, because no one _needs_ a job to live (because they can just live on the basic income) someone would only take that job if it was worth it/fulfilling to them.

How does this all interact with debt? Can I get a lump sum payment in return for my future wage? Can it be taken away to pay creditors, child support, back taxes, etc. ?

I doubt lump-sums-in-advance would be permitted. I'm sure that predatory payday loan places would jump at the chance to fill the gap, though. I hope that if BI is ever implemented, that kind of stuff will be regulated.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#47

If anything like basic income happens expect immigration to be halted and birthright citizenship grants to be ended. The value and meaning of citizenship will rapidly change and tolerance for outsiders taking a slice of the pie will rapidly plunge. I think there will be a lot of ramifications like this that most people probably aren't considering.

Alaska has its Permanent Fund Dividend, which is a kind of basic income coming from state oil sales. How hard is it to get Alaskan citizenship?

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#48
Obviously this is not a new idea... Twenty years ago I sat around with college mates, in Canada, listing the merits of the "Guaranteed Income" and quite frankly I still support the idea today.

If you took all the salaries, property and operations cost associated with distributing old age security, welfare, disability, unemployment wages etc etc, it would probably pay for much of the cost associated with the Guaranteed Income (even if you had a small group dedicated to counter fraud abuse).

I could list out the many benefits and the nay-sayer objections with counter arguments, but after twenty years I've come to realize money distribution is not the problem. The problem is money = power and society is hell bent on gaining power.

The real solution is to move to a resource managed economy that eliminates money all together. But quite frankly we as a society are not there yet and I doubt we will be in my lifetime.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#49

If anything like basic income happens expect immigration to be halted and birthright citizenship grants to be ended. The value and meaning of citizenship will rapidly change and tolerance for outsiders taking a slice of the pie will rapidly plunge. I think there will be a lot of ramifications like this that most people probably aren't considering.

> If anything like basic income happens expect immigration to be halted and birthright citizenship grants to be ended.

Why? Doesn't make a lot of sense. To the extent that immigration might strain a BI system, there are much smaller changes that would allow managing the impacts, while still maintaining the basic high-level structure of the existing citizen and immigration system.

Re: It Is Time For Basic Income

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It replaces minimum wage in that McDonalds is welcome to offer a job flipping burgers for $1 an hour if they want. However, because no one _needs_ a job to live (because they can just live on the basic income) someone would only take that job if it was worth it/fulfilling to them.

How does this all interact with debt? Can I get a lump sum payment in return for my future wage? Can it be taken away to pay creditors, child support, back taxes, etc. ?

> Child support

Presumably, Child Support would no longer exist for anyone.

Children are people, with no income, they would essentially get a child-version of basic income, paid to their parents, to raise them, regardless of all other circumstances.

(Similar to US taxes today, where the government effectively pays you some a small amount of money simply for having a child)

If a couple conceives a child, and one parent abandons the other, the single parent keeps the whole state-provided income for that child, and uses it to raise the child.

It eliminates the whole "penalty" system for distant parents, and if those people eventually get jobs, they pay into the basic income system just as anyone else does (so they aren't dis-incentivized to work).

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