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What You Can't Say (2004)

paulgraham.com

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Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#171

Post by existencebox »

scoofy wrote: post #160
existencebox wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm split on #2. I love meat. I will not stop eating meat. Not only because I trust my personal "instincts" as tuned by millions of years of evolution to inform me to some degree what I need to consume to be effective far more than any conscious decision I might make, (e.g. that I think we're rather "young" in our understanding of how nutrition impacts the body), but because when confronted by that "animals have feel…

Just because you are a predator, just because it may be "natural," doesn't make our current system of meat production morally acceptable. I generally am sympathetic with what you're saying, however, I'm mostly pescatarian due to the issues you completely overlook. So, without getting into the arguments about whether or not humans ought to eat meat (for argument's sake, let's assume we were carnivores, and could not s…

In your topic about inhumane treatment, I apologize if I was unclear, I intended to make it very obvious (" Do I think we could be better? (more humane raising and slaughter) Abso-fucking-lutely. Do I think as technology grows, that we should move to more humane options? I would be more appalled if we didn't.") that this is where I stand.

We should strive in all things to cause as little undue harm as possible. (and trust me, I realize the potential conflict with this and advocating eating meat, which is why I try to apply lots of thought to the problem)

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#172

Post by johngalt »

ChuckMcM wrote: post #14

I find that in engineering circles theology and the notion of the existence of God is one of those 'moral taboos.' And advocating more nuclear power stations or private gun ownership. It is fascinating that were you to advocate gun control in the late 19th century, it seems nearly everyone would have laughed you out of the room. But that sentiment has reversed here in the 21st century. Always interesting to think abo…

Theology maybe. I find it difficult to believe that there are engineers against gun ownership and impossible that there are engineers against nuclear power, to the degree that both subjects are taboo.

Gun ownership is just fear of a tool. I'd see it in a similar vein as ignorant people thinking that TV rots your brain. Or fearing the RTGs on Cassini/MSL. Any engineer should be able to easily identify that breathless tone people use when they blame the tool for human failings.

Nuclear power stations? An engineering circle where nuclear power is encouraged is more likely. I've got a hard time imagining engineers sitting around reasonably coming to the conclusion that carbon free power in huge quantities is taboo to even discuss.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#173

Post by bal00ns »

scoofy wrote: post #22

I don't really understand this article. What is the point of an empirical approach to taboo. I was a student of philosophy for years, and ethics is essentially a top-down way of finding the exact things he's looking for. Whether it be Kant's categorical imperative or Singer's expanding circle, it seems to me this taboo chasing is missing the bigger picture of finding a justifiable ethical framework, and then everythi…

You're right, this article is missing the bigger picture, but I don't think that was ever its target. It's simple, accessible, and piques peoples interest into something much bigger. I don't see it as an attempt to directly contribute to any specific field.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#174

Post by chrismonsanto »

ucarion wrote: post #163
nostromo wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, you're not trying hard enough. :) Most unspeakable thoughts today deal with isms and phobias: sexism, racism, agism, Islamophobia, homophobia. There are others of course. For example, I am not a climate-change denier, but if I was I certainly wouldn't say so on HN! I'm gay so I'll pick on my own group: HIV is ridiculously high amongst urban gay men. To me, it's obvious why this is the case. Evolutionarily, men…

I agree with you about most of those phobias, but I strongly disagree about Islamophobia. I think future societies will be surprised by how much human suffering we permit in the name of being "tolerant". Religions are not all created equal, and no intellectually honest person will claim that Islam and Jainism are equally valid moral frameworks (this is why few people fret about Jainophobia). We know that Islam and it…

I think a lot of people write "Islamophobia" when they mean "hating Islam as an excuse to hate Arab people."

Speaking as an Arab person who is very critical of Islam, I think we should be careful to distinguish the two.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#175

Post by LaaT »

selimthegrim wrote: post #149
LaaT wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And he didn't even get his facts right. His atrocities were minor at best. Much of the killing had happened long before his time.

True enough. But then why does the modern Turkish state continue to deny what happened to the Ottoman Armenians? You think they'd have a field day showing how much the Empire sucked.

I might be wrong, but apart from Germany no one has owned up a genocide. I suspect Germans wouldn't have done it if it wasn't forced upon them during allied occupation of Germany. There's little reason for Turkish to break ground in this regard.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#176

Post by [deleted] »

nostromo wrote: post #136
ggreer wrote: post #68

Here are some things I think future societies will condemn us for: 1. Prison. Almost every modern penal system focuses on punishment rather than rehabilitation. I think that as our understanding of the brain improves, we'll be able to find the causes of violent behavior and cure them. Punishment will become cruel and unusual. 2. Eating meat (and other animal rights issues). Even if they're not conscious, most tasty a…

Dude, you're not trying hard enough. :) Most unspeakable thoughts today deal with isms and phobias: sexism, racism, agism, Islamophobia, homophobia. There are others of course. For example, I am not a climate-change denier, but if I was I certainly wouldn't say so on HN! I'm gay so I'll pick on my own group: HIV is ridiculously high amongst urban gay men. To me, it's obvious why this is the case. Evolutionarily, men…

[deleted]

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#177

Post by sfx »

I'm glad this was submitted here for discussion. The first time I read this essay I had trouble coming up with ways our society behaves that "people in the future will find ridiculous." Many of the ones in the comments are just ways our society is backwards, but not many taboos.

1. America's devoted support for our military. A support so unquestioning that you can be beaten up for saying otherwise. Polar opposite from the Vietnam war. Strange how much this has changed in less than forty years.

2. Eugenics, while not totally taboo, it's hard to talk about it without being labeled a bigot, racist, etc.

3. I also think it's difficult to have a discussion on pedophiles that doesn't involve advocating locking them up forever, it might be worth having a more empathetic discussion on such crimes. (I almost didn't include this last one for fear of getting in trouble, I rewrote it a dozen different times, but it's such a taboo subject that it should be examined.)

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#178

Post by kansface »

svantana wrote: post #153
existencebox wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm split on #2. I love meat. I will not stop eating meat. Not only because I trust my personal "instincts" as tuned by millions of years of evolution to inform me to some degree what I need to consume to be effective far more than any conscious decision I might make, (e.g. that I think we're rather "young" in our understanding of how nutrition impacts the body), but because when confronted by that "animals have feel…

Yes, I'm taking the bait. I'm sorry but this reeks of rationalization. Let's just have a look at some of your assertions: - we don't understand how nutrition affects the body. True, but there are societies that are vegetarian and have been for centuries. Apparently veggies are healthy! - You are a predator? I don't know you but I'm willing to bet it's been a while since you hunted down, killed, and ate an animal in t…

"It tastes good" is an exceptionally morally weak argument. All sorts of unsavory things probably taste great, but we don't eat them.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#179

Post by dbbolton »

>It could be that the scientists are simply smarter; most physicists could, if necessary, make it through a PhD program in French literature, but few professors of French literature could make it through a PhD program in physics.

I think this is a pretty unfair generalization, and furthers the stereotype that STEM majors are smarter/harder-working/generally better than liberal arts majors. It is not inconceivable to me that most people choose to major in something they are passionate. I think people who choose a major just because they perceive it as easy are a small minority of students.

Aside from that, I personally believe academic success is primarily due to hard work, rather than intelligence. I imagine almost all PhDs are reasonably intelligent and could in fact make it through a physics program, provided they were willing to put in the time and effort.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#180

Post by kansface »

DickingAround wrote: post #77
ggreer wrote: post #68

Here are some things I think future societies will condemn us for: 1. Prison. Almost every modern penal system focuses on punishment rather than rehabilitation. I think that as our understanding of the brain improves, we'll be able to find the causes of violent behavior and cure them. Punishment will become cruel and unusual. 2. Eating meat (and other animal rights issues). Even if they're not conscious, most tasty a…

As much as I might want to agree with some of them, they fail the 'time' test. We've used prisons for a while, same with eating animals.

Factory farms are a new thing.
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