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What You Can't Say (2004)

paulgraham.com

91–100 of 308 posts

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#91
post #68

Here are some things I think future societies will condemn us for: 1. Prison. Almost every modern penal system focuses on punishment rather than rehabilitation. I think that as our understanding of the brain improves, we'll be able to find the causes of violent behavior and cure them. Punishment will become cruel and unusual. 2. Eating meat (and other animal rights issues). Even if they're not conscious, most tasty a…

As much as I might want to agree with some of them, they fail the 'time' test. We've used prisons for a while, same with eating animals.

That's a good point, but things withstand the test of time until they don't. Slavery. Racism. Subjugation of women. Torture as entertainment. These practices were once as widespread as smallpox and polio. Now, they're as widespread as smallpox and polio.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#92
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Even in Paul Graham's own essay, some things are always forgotten. He's smart enough to question why the Church/Italian state attacked Galileo for repeating Copernicus' ideas, who was a celebrated hero of the church. And nobody ever realizes that Galileo was not at all interested in the scientific facts (well he was, up to the point he went insane and became a political agitator and generally a lunatic, read…

> There is at least a decent case to be made that Galileo was executed Where do you get that he was executed? Also, regarding differences between Copernicus's treatment and Galileo's. Copernicus didn't publish a lot of his material, nor was it widely known, until late in life. Galileo basically stepped into the controversy that had developed after Copernicus died. Essentially, there was little controversy in Copernic…

This is my point. Galileo didn't advance knowledge by his acts, that was already done (within the scientific community if not within the wider world) (And granted, he did advance knowledge at other times on other subjects). He attempted to use it to change the state by agitating large portions of the population using that fact.

I would even say he was not so much looking to change the state, rather to destroy it, becoming a sort of dictator himself, without any thought to what that would do. This he did after a few years of sending out letter that made it very clear he would immediately execute half the nobility and clergy if he did come to power. It didn't help that he had pissed off all of his teachers and environment with those letters. This is what his trial was really about, and of course it mentioned his rallying cries.Those were not the essence of the trial though.

Think about it. Suppose you're an autocratic ruler in the middle ages, in Italy. Everybody's writing letters, a lot of them calling for your throat getting slit. One more of these lunatics starts writing letters. Disturbing letters, lots of them. You ignore him, at this point, there's 100 others like him. Then a few demonstrations happen, led by him, with hundreds of people calling for your throat getting slit on the street. This is unnerving, but happens regularly, most demonstration leaders are never seen again, so, again, you probably ignore this. But if he manages to make the demonstrations grow, you've got to react. That's what happened.

Regardless if you agree with the second paragraph, he was not attacked because he claimed the earth rotated around the sun.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#93
post #68

Here are some things I think future societies will condemn us for: 1. Prison. Almost every modern penal system focuses on punishment rather than rehabilitation. I think that as our understanding of the brain improves, we'll be able to find the causes of violent behavior and cure them. Punishment will become cruel and unusual. 2. Eating meat (and other animal rights issues). Even if they're not conscious, most tasty a…

As much as I might want to agree with some of them, they fail the 'time' test. We've used prisons for a while, same with eating animals.

World of difference. Eating animals has happened since, well, our first ancestors crawled out of the ocean.

Prisons are a radically modern invention, maybe more so than any other government institution. It's just they and their logic are so pervasive we don't recognize them for what they are.

See: Foucault, Bentham.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#94
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That Socrates thing is curious. His crime: "Socrates is guilty of crime in refusing to recognize the gods acknowledged by the state, and importing strange divinities of his own; he is further guilty of corrupting the young." Was that just a convenient law to hang his prosecution on? Why not "inciting others to treason" or some such direct accusion?

The key here is to find out what the relation is between his "corrupted young" (ie. his students) and the thirty tyrants.

Do you have any citations at all or is this just a theory of yours? (not being hostile, would love to see a citation as this is a new theory to me)

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#96
post #7

This is a great article. If you believe everything you're supposed to now, how can you be sure you wouldn't also have believed everything you were supposed to if you had grown up among the plantation owners of the pre-Civil War South, or in Germany in the 1930s-- or among the Mongols in 1200, for that matter? Odds are you would have. This is lost on most people. You'll just hear "of course it was wrong!" and this poi…

This is probably one of the better articles I've read on this subject, but I feel it walks around a greater issue that afflicts much of modern philosophical discourse.

It is nearly impossible to divorce the way we view the world with the way we talk about the world. This is basically what the author of this article is saying (and that societal structures reinforce this view by enforcing restrictions on language). The key point there is that the way we view truths about the world doesn't necessarily reveal any truths about the way the world actually is: this is a trap that makes all but the most abstract (and meaningless) philosophical metaphysics paper turn into an exercise in reading jargon.

The author limits his analysis to morality, but I think it can be extended to any sort of classification exercise. If societal definitions of truth and heresy change over time, why can't the definition of a chair? So while two thousand years ago, "chair" could have meant either something with four legs, a back and a seat or simply a straw mat.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#99
I have to say, while I really like this article, I think it goes too far with the statement: "Argue with idiots, and you become an idiot."

He prefaces that statement with a very black and white example of people who ban the color yellow. Using that example every reader can agree they are idiots, but in truth these issues are never that black and white. So calling them idiots, and suggesting you would become one by entering the debate goes a little too far - IMHO.

Re: What You Can't Say (2004)

#100
post #7

This is a great article. If you believe everything you're supposed to now, how can you be sure you wouldn't also have believed everything you were supposed to if you had grown up among the plantation owners of the pre-Civil War South, or in Germany in the 1930s-- or among the Mongols in 1200, for that matter? Odds are you would have. This is lost on most people. You'll just hear "of course it was wrong!" and this poi…

> But if it was obvious that it was wrong, why did masses of people agree to this? They wouldn't have done it if they also saw it as wrong.

Because we, as a species, learn.

Yes, value systems might change. But it seems, at least to me, that they rarely (not never, but rarely) revert back to older norms.

We probably are "wrong" about things we believe right now, too. Some of the beliefs will be considered wrong in the future because we have different circumstances. Most of them will have changed because we've realized they're actively harmful to the continued existence of a human society.

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