Lessons from a Silicon Valley job search • Hacker News Board

Re: Lessons from a Silicon Valley job search

#111

Post by oinksoft » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 5:57 PM UTC

temuze wrote: post #35

petenixey wrote: post #5

(sorry for sidetracking the excellent piece but...) When I examine the ~13,000 hours I've spent programming I find it hilarious that interviews should centre around algorithmic problems. I've been guilty of it myself and failing FizzBuzz is definitely a true negative but it's so little of a true positive it's not even funny. What I would really love to know about you as a candidate is: - do you know how to actually n…

I think most interviews don't focus enough on systems. I expect every software engineer to know: - How virtual memory works - How threads work - How TCP works - How ports work - How ethernet works - How DNS works - How a web server works. And so on. A lot of these things are more important than theory (but I think theory is important, too!).

It's funny how the things you know well always happen to be the bare minimum of what you expect from others. Then you learn something else and hopefully realize that yourself of yesteryear still managed to write good, maintainable software, but that your current self would consider the old self a charlatan.

Lists like these reflect your own experience. I care more if an engineer can quickly grasp the "big ideas": Maybe they don't know about threads, but do they express disbelief that they solve a real problem, or an unwillingness to explore them? A willingness and aptitude for learning is so much more important because the state of the art is a moving target.

Re: Lessons from a Silicon Valley job search

#112

Post by fecak » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 5:59 PM UTC

kevinastone wrote: post #107

fecak wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is poor advice. When you say "I'm always open to negotiating", you've immediately lost to a degree. Think about these two scenarios: Q: "How much are you seeking?" A1: "I'm looking for 80K" A2: "I'm looking for 80K, but I'm always open to negotiating" A1 may get 80K, A2 is unlikely to get 80K, because A2 has started negotiations before even being told no. When you are asked for a salary requirement in a live set…

This is generally good advise (don't suggest willingness to negotiate, because that suggests you will take less). But, unless you've done research and have confidence that the $80k is viable for your experience and the position, you can also scare off many potential employers. That's why I'd suggest delaying giving a hard number to much later in the process, after all the screening and interviews when its time to dev…

No argument here - if you walk into any hiring situation without some knowledge of fair market value, you are in a bad spot. I think candidates don't prepare for the question as well as they should and try to improvise on the spot, and many are not good at the improv. Having a number that is well-researched is quite useful, and being able to negotiate on your feet as necessary once numbers are discussed is important. Email is made much of that easier, as numbers are often shared in that manner instead of in live conversation.

Re: Lessons from a Silicon Valley job search

#113

Post by crassus » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 6:03 PM UTC

"""Far too many offers come through as:

$Xk/year 10,000 options

This is literally equivalent to:

$Xk/year $100bn in monopoly money and bingly bongly bangly boo"""

It is incredibly dishonest and disrespectful when startups job offers hide information about the value of their equity. I know some investors are encouraging this behavior, but please have the courage to stand up to them. Employees have a right to know the fair market value of the compensation they will receive for trading away their time and labor.

Re: Lessons from a Silicon Valley job search

#114

Post by crassus » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 6:07 PM UTC

void-star wrote: post #34

This may very well have been an excellent piece. But, the author lost me no later than 2 sentences in with his immature and sexist "nerdy girl" analogy. I just didn't even bother to read the rest. Working in silicon valley myself, I already waste enough time on people who think this kind of immature male mindset is okay.

One of the many downsides of the "sexism in tech" scare is the growth of hypersensitive white-knighting.

Romance is the most commonly used metaphor in the history of the English language. I suggest you avoid Shakespeare.

Re: Lessons from a Silicon Valley job search

#115

Post by jaredsohn » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 6:09 PM UTC

Fenicio wrote: post #42

bluejet wrote: post #10

I recently went through the same process and didn't have quite the same luck. Background: London. Comp Sci. from top 10 worldwide college. 2 years C++, Python, iOS experience in well known company on high profile project. Internship at start up with VC funding before that. Github profile with open-source projects, own projects etc. Started blog etc...basically everything that is recommended. Studied for 5 months (up…

> Comp Sci. from top 10 worldwide college Hogwarts?

Don't want to get too far off topic (or reddity), but Hogwarts seems like more of a trade school. (Great for magic, not for a university education or for fields such as computer science.)

Re: Lessons from a Silicon Valley job search

#116

Post by crassus » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 6:09 PM UTC

philangist wrote: post #66

joshbert wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a shallow and inaccurate assessment of what's one the best articles that's been posted in the past month.

Sexism is a problem in the tech world, but I think some people also just love to be offended. Bill Burr calls it being 'professionally outraged'.

How do you know sexism is a particular problem in the tech world? Unequal representation of some particular demographic group is not sufficient evidence for discrimination.

Re: Lessons from a Silicon Valley job search

#117

Post by gatehouse » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 6:13 PM UTC

GuiA wrote: post #94

jpsim wrote: post #71

If you're Mexican/Canadian, a TN Visa might be a better option than H1B since there's no annual limit. I'm currently in Silicon Valley from Canada on a 2.5 day trip, with 4 interviews in that timeframe, and it's quite fun yet intense. I'd also say that if you're a self-taught programmer (I'm an EE), it's worthwhile to read a book like Intro to Algorithms[1] cover to cover before you start doing technical interviews.…

I may be wrong, but I believe that interviewing in the US while you're on a tourist visa/ESTA (presumably your case?) constitutes "seeking immigrant status" and is unlawful. You may want to avoid posting about it in public forums where your identity can be easily traced.

I am really, really not a lawyer, but he says he is seeking a job offer for a TN visa, which is non-immigrant status, so I don't think this is a case of seeking immigrant status.

Re: Lessons from a Silicon Valley job search

#118

Post by auctiontheory » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 6:18 PM UTC

djb_hackernews wrote: post #110

at-fates-hands wrote: post #40

>> You want to start negotiating at your strongest point - when they have said “we love you, let’s make a deal.” One simple practice is at the end of the interview when you get the, "So what's the salary range you're looking at?" question, I always give them about 5-10K higher than what I'm currently making with the caveat, "But I'm always open to negotiating." which keeps the door open for the company/agency to get…

"But, I'm always open to negotiation" is a good way to guarantee you won't get what you want. It's pretty well accepted that the first person to give a number loses, so you want to push this on them. They are the business with a budget, and a budget for your position, they already know what they can and can't afford. All they are trying to figure out is how much you are undervaluing yourself. This question typically…

> It's pretty well accepted that the first person to give a number loses

Accepted but not necessarily true. In this market where the candidate often has very good salary data, s/he can also win by anchoring very high.

Re: Lessons from a Silicon Valley job search

#119

Post by Terr_ » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 6:28 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #98

steven2012 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never, ever, ever pin yourself down with a number. This weakens your ability to negotiate tremendously. Not giving a number forces the other side to present what they believe to be a good offer, as opposed to what you already mentioned as a desired number, which might be a lot lower than what they were thinking of. I always say "I'm fine with a market-rate salary. I'm open to a salary cut from my current salary if th…

Given that, as an employee, you are the seller in the relationship, that would be like Walmart not posting prices on any items and making you suggest what it is worth at the checkout. It is not usually how business is done. About the only exception that I can think of is in sales of commodities, where the buyer typically does make the offer. I'm not sure you want to treat yourself and career as a commodity, do you? W…

> Given that, as an employee, you are the seller in the relationship

Very serious question: Is that actually true, and why do you believe it?

Is it "I'm not the one with hard cash, therefore I am obligated to negotiate like a big box retailer"? Don't be fooled into adopting an unhelpful paradigm or power-relationship just because what you are bartering is harder to quanitfy.

In many ways your employer is much more like Walmart than you will can be. For example, they are a larger entity that can amortize risks over lots of individual interactions. Also. they invest significantly in accounting, data collection, and have better knowledge of what rate they can accept for a transaction.

Walk into a negotiation thinking that you "owe" the other guy an advantage, and you've already given it to them.

Re: Lessons from a Silicon Valley job search

#120

Post by kevinastone » Wed, Mar 19, 2014, 6:30 PM UTC

steven2012 wrote: post #108

kevinastone wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your answer to "what salary are you expecting?" is: "I'm fine with a market-rate salary", I'll just ask you what you think market-rate is for your position. Now, usually, you can just say something like: "market-rate will vary with the type of position, role and responsibilities". The goal of the recruiter is just to get a confirmation that your expectations are in within the range permitted for the position. If y…

I will admit to not knowing how things are done outside of Silicon Valley, so if that's the norm outside then I gladly defer to you. But in Silicon Valley I've never been pressed to give a salary. So in today's market, if I were talking to you as a prospective employee and you pressed me to give you a salary without you telling me how much you want to pay for the salary, I would politely decline to continue the inter…

Yeah, fair point. If by Silicon Valley, you mean the large tech companies (like Google, Apple, etc), you're correct that they won't ask your salary expectations since they have their own internal process for determining compensation for a given candidate. (They also generally think they can outbid anyone else).

I have been working with smaller startups (down here in LA, but I've seen the same behavior up north), who tend to filter candidates based on expected salary due to limited resources and hiring for an exact role. (We tend to mask our cheapness by using phrases like "hungry" or "passionate").