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Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

marc.info

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Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#91

Post by jessaustin »

znowi wrote: post #60

Instrumental in this message for me was this part: There is no honour amongst hackers any more. 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain moral conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Today with a mass market of startups, that was largely popularized by Hacker News, this perception has changed. A hacker now is a founder. He must be good at raising money, monetizing a product and the greatest…

HN folks have taken an interest in ESR recently, so here's his recent take on this topic wrt Weev:

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=5492

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#92

Post by lawnchair_larry »

tptacek wrote: post #82
znowi wrote: post #60

Instrumental in this message for me was this part: There is no honour amongst hackers any more. 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain moral conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Today with a mass market of startups, that was largely popularized by Hacker News, this perception has changed. A hacker now is a founder. He must be good at raising money, monetizing a product and the greatest…

I don't even know how to respond to the idea that teenagers breaking into phone switches and harassing people, buying Pantera CDs on stolen credit cards, stealing ESNs from other people's phones to make calls on someone else's bill, and rm'ing Unix boxes are somehow more honorable than adults running businesses. The "hackers" FD's moderator is talking about are the ones I'm talking about. They aren't MIT students ord…

Sounds like somebody wasn't in the cool kids group.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#93

Post by tptacek »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #92
tptacek wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even know how to respond to the idea that teenagers breaking into phone switches and harassing people, buying Pantera CDs on stolen credit cards, stealing ESNs from other people's phones to make calls on someone else's bill, and rm'ing Unix boxes are somehow more honorable than adults running businesses. The "hackers" FD's moderator is talking about are the ones I'm talking about. They aren't MIT students ord…

Sounds like somebody wasn't in the cool kids group.

What does this even mean?

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#94

Post by mzs »

at-fates-hands wrote: post #68
znowi wrote: post #60

Instrumental in this message for me was this part: There is no honour amongst hackers any more. 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain moral conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Today with a mass market of startups, that was largely popularized by Hacker News, this perception has changed. A hacker now is a founder. He must be good at raising money, monetizing a product and the greatest…

>>> 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain morale conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Agreed. There was a certain "code" people adhered to. Even groups like LOD wouldn't release exploits because they feared people would use them for nefarious purposes.

Rather especially LOD, LOD circa kicking out TM and the war with MOD was more the exception than the rule.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#95

Post by supersystem »

FiloSottile wrote: post #67
znowi wrote: post #60

Instrumental in this message for me was this part: There is no honour amongst hackers any more. 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain moral conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Today with a mass market of startups, that was largely popularized by Hacker News, this perception has changed. A hacker now is a founder. He must be good at raising money, monetizing a product and the greatest…

Here you are speaking about the two different meanings of hacker, security-hacker and startup-hacker. Yes, there is a big difference, and you described it. But it's not the point. Full-disclosure is all of security-hackers. And the sad thing is that there is no more honour amongst security-hackers. In the 90s they used to share 0-days. Today, well if you don't sell it you're a fool. I'm so sad I missed that period, I…

The "startup-hacker" doesn't really exist. It's just a label for people who can't necessarily identify with being a businessperson.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#96

Post by lawnchair_larry »

tptacek wrote: post #93
lawnchair_larry wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like somebody wasn't in the cool kids group.

What does this even mean?

You're cherry picking the worst examples and it just sounds bitter. That isn't how most people were, and there are plenty of bad actors in industry that have done (and continue to do) far worse.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#97

Post by ganeumann »

noname123 wrote: post #80
znowi wrote: post #60

Instrumental in this message for me was this part: There is no honour amongst hackers any more. 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain moral conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Today with a mass market of startups, that was largely popularized by Hacker News, this perception has changed. A hacker now is a founder. He must be good at raising money, monetizing a product and the greatest…

Yes. This is true. I posted something similar circa 2009 about this sentiment. It used to bother me a lot but not anymore. A reply from pg on the different cultures: pg 1678 days ago | link Everything you've written would have been just as true in the 1980s, with a few of the names changed. Then too there were authentic hackers, glib fakers, and corporate drones. The great majority of the computer world in the 1980s…

Paul Graham wrote "On Lisp." If ever a book was written by a true hacker, that one is it, and it will be read as long as there are programmable computers.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#98

Post by tptacek »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #96
tptacek wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this even mean?

You're cherry picking the worst examples and it just sounds bitter. That isn't how most people were, and there are plenty of bad actors in industry that have done (and continue to do) far worse.

No, I mean, which "cool kids" are you referring to? I'm asking seriously. What exactly are you talking about? I'll respond in detail. I've been involved in vulnerability research since high school. And I'm guessing I'm significantly older than you are: I was already working professionally when the Lopatic overflow hit.

I'm weakly willing to bet that whoever you think the "cool kids" were actually sucked.

Re: Full-disclosure – Administrivia: The End

#99

Post by ontoillogical »

tptacek wrote: post #82
znowi wrote: post #60

Instrumental in this message for me was this part: There is no honour amongst hackers any more. 10-20 years back a term hacker had a close relation to a certain moral conduct emphasizing freedom of knowledge. Today with a mass market of startups, that was largely popularized by Hacker News, this perception has changed. A hacker now is a founder. He must be good at raising money, monetizing a product and the greatest…

I don't even know how to respond to the idea that teenagers breaking into phone switches and harassing people, buying Pantera CDs on stolen credit cards, stealing ESNs from other people's phones to make calls on someone else's bill, and rm'ing Unix boxes are somehow more honorable than adults running businesses. The "hackers" FD's moderator is talking about are the ones I'm talking about. They aren't MIT students ord…

> They aren't MIT students ordering sweet and sour bitter melon.

What's that a reference to?

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