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Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

time.com

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Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#121

Post by flagg »

exelius wrote: post #105
jasonlotito wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learning to overcome disadvantages doesn't cease to make them disadvantages.

Ok, well how about this: I don't ever remember what happens in meetings. Because of this, I learned to take really good notes. As a result of my coping strategy, I always have a distinct advantage over people who don't have ADHD. I can look at my notes from 6 months ago and tell you what we talked about in a meeting. I don't really think of it as a "disadvantage" because it's really just about knowing your personal l…

Not being able to keep a complex math problem in ones head would be a memory problem as well, would it not... before my age 34 diagnosis - forget math all together... my working memory was abysmal; now I am completing 2nd year IT: ComSci. I have a chance, thanks to that "demon" stimulant medication, and a environment, where I am not told I am "lazy" any more. This article, while seemingly accurate, leaves out the obvious rare case of actual ADHD.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#122

Post by JohnBooty »

richardlblair wrote: post #34

Some folks are missing the point. Both the definition of ADHD and the treatment plan for it (in North America) are broken. In France, just 0.5% of children suffer from ADHD (opposed to ~5% in North America), and with those children they find the root cause of the issue and deal with that. They tend to shy away from medication. This is, more often than not, the proper treatment option for behavioural issues. People ne…

I think the author of the Time article can hardly complain if people are missing the point, since his article and book have the deliberately inflammatory title of "ADHD Doesn't Exist."

  People need to realize the DSM, in its current state, 
  is a massive cash cow for Big Pharma. When it comes to 
  ADHD specifically, they needed a bigger market, 
  welcome Adult ADHD.
If I was going to design a "cash cow" in the pharma market... well, I certainly wouldn't know how, but I wouldn't pick a diagnosis where one of the most popular drugs (Adderall) is cheaply available in generic form and can only be produced in restricted quantities due to fed regulations because it's a controlled substance.

  In France, just 0.5% of children suffer from ADHD 
  (opposed to ~5% in North America)
Replace "suffer from" with "are diagnosed with." Remember, there are countries in the world where 0.0% of children are diagnosed with ADHD, and there are countries where depression and homosexuality "don't exist" because they're not recognized.

It certainly seems likely that it's overdiagnosed in the U.S., but we can't learn anything concrete by looking at diagnosis rates in other countries.

  I'm much more interested in finding the actual problem, 
  and fixing that.
Amen to that, but telling people their condition "doesn't exist" (the author's words, not yours, obviously) is harmful, not helpful.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#123

Post by JohnBooty »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #117
JohnBooty wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But I have to ask an honest question: do you have a deficiency for which you need treatment? Or do you have a personality type which might make you unsuited for certain types of work? Or -- more likely -- do you have a tendency for a type of personality attribute expression which varies depending on various external stimuli? I think it's perfectly fine that something like ADHD is a naturally- occurring personality tr…

I agree. It's the stigma that I'm talking about. Medicating yourself to adjust your ability to focus in order to perform your job? Like I said, count me in for that. As a society we're going to have to accept that people are different, and that people may need various medications to adjust their performance capabilities to do various things. That doesn't make these people broken! Simply because you are taking some ch…

Yeah. The stigma is a terrible thing, possibly the worst thing about it.

I never, ever mention ADHD in a workplace[1]. Too many misconceptions, and too many people willing to assume that you're trying to make "excuses."

If I have a specific need, such as having a quiet work area for concentration's sake, I don't ever shy away from making my case for it. But I never present it in the context of "having ADHD."

[1] Although perhaps future employers will Google me and see this discussion. :)

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#124

Post by JohnBooty »

NextUserName wrote: post #116

Modern civilization has certainly invented ADHD. It used to be that if you had ADHD, you probably weren't a banker, lawyer or politician. You certainly would not work in a cubicle and rot away all day. You also lived 15 years longer than your sedentary counterpart. You would do a more physical job. Physical work often creates the necessary stimulation that so many of these ADHD cases need. The argument that it just i…

Physical work isn't necessarily easier for those with ADHD than desk jobs. In high school and college I had some physical jobs. Those jobs are often menial, and the monotony and repetition are really the opposite of what those with ADHD (especially those with ADHD and high intelligence) are "naturally" suited for.

  Do we say the same the same thing for aspiring athletes 
  who weren't born with the muscle mass to play pro 
  football?
We don't "pump them full of steroids" because unlike the (admittedly imperfect) ADHD treatments we have now, muscle-building steroids have negative side effects that greatly outweigh their benefits.

We do give them the best medical care possible. If an aspiring athlete breaks a leg or has plantar fasciitis, we treat those things. We don't just say, "guess you weren't meant to be an athlete."

  It used to be that if you had ADHD, you probably weren't a
  banker, lawyer or politician.
Yeah, and if you had bad eyesight, you were probably steered away from those professions as well.

And if you were left-handed people assumed you were under demonic influence or something.

And if you were dyslexic people assumed you were stupid.

I'm glad people like me are winning against people like you.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#125

Post by Houshalter »

300bps wrote: post #96
JohnBooty wrote: post #15

This article is so potentially harmful, even if it's more nuanced than the hyperbolic "ADHD Doesn't Exist" title would suggest. The reality is that -- whatever the underlying cause -- a lot of people struggle with attention span issues, and that these issues cause a lot of pain and unfulfilled potential. Even if ADHD medications are overprescribed Band-Aids, people benefit from them. We should try and find better dia…

So I sought treatment... at the age of 32. Hi John, I'm curious if you tried any of the following before trying medication: 1. No TV 2. No Video Games 3. No Internet aggregators (slashdot / digg / reddit/ hn / etc) 4. Meditation I am a colossal procrastinator and frequently unfocused person that had a much less successful academic career than you due to that. So far I've been going through periods of trying the above…

Well my anecdote: Before technology, I procrastinated just as much, by spending many hours walking outside. I can't say technology improved things, but it's certainly not the root cause. Can't say I tried meditation, it seems like pseudoscience. I haven't tried medication yet either, but I'd really like to.

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#126

Post by Houshalter »

NextUserName wrote: post #114
JohnBooty wrote: post #15

This article is so potentially harmful, even if it's more nuanced than the hyperbolic "ADHD Doesn't Exist" title would suggest. The reality is that -- whatever the underlying cause -- a lot of people struggle with attention span issues, and that these issues cause a lot of pain and unfulfilled potential. Even if ADHD medications are overprescribed Band-Aids, people benefit from them. We should try and find better dia…

For every one of you who takes the meds route, there are others who change careers, jobs, or learn exercises and methods to stay on task better. This has been the traditional way to deal with these problems. I am not saying that I would not do any different if I were in your shoes, but changing your career to match your brain sure sounds more natural, and that is usually a good thing. It is sad how science and techno…

A couple hundred years ago I would have been essentially blind because a lack of these "unnatural" glasses. There's a good chance I'd be dead because of "unnatural" vaccines and antibiotics.

No, technology hasn't made normal people have a medical condition. We already had a medical condition. Science and technology allows us to understand that, and to improve our lives beyond just "give up and get another job".

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#127

Post by jasonlotito »

richardlblair wrote: post #34

Some folks are missing the point. Both the definition of ADHD and the treatment plan for it (in North America) are broken. In France, just 0.5% of children suffer from ADHD (opposed to ~5% in North America), and with those children they find the root cause of the issue and deal with that. They tend to shy away from medication. This is, more often than not, the proper treatment option for behavioural issues. People ne…

> In France, just 0.5% of children suffer from ADHD (opposed to ~5% in North America)

That's false. You are grossly misquoting the article.

"the percentage of kids diagnosed and medicated for ADHD is less than .5%."

Diagnosed AND medicated. The French are very much against medication for any mental condition. They also don't share the same method to diagnose, and their methods for treatment are less than desirable.

So, combining those cultural attitudes toward treatment and my experience with French doctors and pediatricians (whose first suggestion for autism treatment was literally "put him in a home and forget about him"), holding them up as a shining example is only done by those in ignorance.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/here-there-and-everywher... http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/suffer-the-children/2012...

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#128

Post by darkarmani »

trillium wrote: post #41
JimboOmega wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I agree this article is kind of a mess, the title misleading. This is the nature of ADHD. It's a magnet for people wanting to cry "overdiagnosed"! However, tolerance is a big question. Taking an ADHD medicine for the first week or so after not taking any for months prior is a pretty profound experience. But that tapers off. And leaves one to wonder... is my condition still improved? I have seen very few studies (t…

I've written a book on ADHD (Adult ADHD: What You Need to Know). I specifically looked into the tolerance questions. The doctors I found who are experts in the field and have treated a very large amount of patients say developing tolerance is unusual. *Minor edit

Thanks for writing a book. I haven't read your book, but I've found Delivered from Distraction to be a godsend. You can't help but read that book and either feel comfort for yourself or a better understanding of someone else who you just realized has ADD.

http://www.amazon.com/Delivered-Distraction-John-J-Ratey-ebo...

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#129

Post by darkarmani »

eruditely wrote: post #94
JohnBooty wrote: post #15

This article is so potentially harmful, even if it's more nuanced than the hyperbolic "ADHD Doesn't Exist" title would suggest. The reality is that -- whatever the underlying cause -- a lot of people struggle with attention span issues, and that these issues cause a lot of pain and unfulfilled potential. Even if ADHD medications are overprescribed Band-Aids, people benefit from them. We should try and find better dia…

Thank you. Every time I set down my wallet, keys, phone, and pocket equipment and whenever it's time to pick everything up. I lose everything. I have lost my wallet + cash roughly 6-9 times this year so far and probably like 4k cash. I always miss deadlines and forget everything, I was diagnosed with ADHD with a child, but went along with the narrative that I was just lazy, or didn't have discipline, or was just an u…

The book below is pretty awesome. The other wrote two different books: Driven to distraction and delivered from distraction.

http://www.amazon.com/Delivered-Distraction-John-J-Ratey-ebo...

Re: Doctor: ADHD, as currently defined, does not exist

#130

Post by darkarmani »

NextUserName wrote: post #116

Modern civilization has certainly invented ADHD. It used to be that if you had ADHD, you probably weren't a banker, lawyer or politician. You certainly would not work in a cubicle and rot away all day. You also lived 15 years longer than your sedentary counterpart. You would do a more physical job. Physical work often creates the necessary stimulation that so many of these ADHD cases need. The argument that it just i…

> The argument that it just isn't fair that someone's mind is more suited for a desk job than someone else, so we should put them on equal footing by administering drugs the rest of their lives is a flawed and slippery slope mentality. Do we say the same the same thing for aspiring athletes who weren't born with the muscle mass to play pro football? "Lets make things fair and pump this kid full of roids so he can be an all pro linebacker"...

Except that isn't the argument. Just like we don't try and save premature babies to try and "be fair" and we don't treat suffers of diseases to "be fair." There is no slippery slope argument here. The onus is on you to prove that there is in fact a slope and then to show how slippery it is.

> Physical work often creates the necessary stimulation that so many of these ADHD cases need.

Who are you to tell sufferers the best way to treat their condition? Don't you think it is best for people to get a say in their treatment?

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