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The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

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Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#141

Post by melindajb »

your_throwaway wrote: post #139
melindajb wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can override the animal instincts to kill other humans, why is it so hard to override your thoughts and just treat all other humans with the same respect you'd give your best friend, at least until you see a valid reason not to? No one is saying that getting a beer after work is bad, or telling jokes is bad, or that thinking is bad. this is hand waving. We're asking you, again, to a) understand that lots of dr…

With the same respect I treat my best friend? Well, first: my best friend is a woman. And could you please enumerate for me what constitutes a sexist joke? My aforementioned best friend (who I have had this conversation with) as well as most of the women friends I've had this conversation with agree that things like "dongle" jokes are hilarious . So are racist jokes (do you seriously not tell any racist jokes? Ever?…

Just because your best friend is a woman doesn't mean you're incapable of being a sexist. For example, she might be one of those women who enforce some pretty crappy old patriarchial shit. I have no idea. But it's not evidence you can use to say you aren't sexist. Are you trolling?

I do not tell racist jokes. ever. period. Why would I ever risk offending someone I really care about for something so stupid? I enjoy Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, and Louis CK as much as the next person, but I make sure I understand why're they are funny, to laugh with them, not at them.

your simplistic thinking really makes me question a lot about you. Are you very young also? Perhaps you haven't heard stories from people you respect about the pain they've suffered in silicon valley? Because otherwise you wouldn't be so flippant, and so defensive about such things.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#142

Post by sliverstorm »

melindajb wrote: post #138
sliverstorm wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also complaining about getting hit on? Really? A person finds you attractive and wants to talk to you. What a monster. Amusingly enough, I was just reading an article by a woman, complaining that not enough men hit on her in SF.

I'm confused. Are you are unable, or unwilling to discriminate between a woman wanting to be hit on in a social situation; and not willing to be harassed or discriminated against in a professional context?

I don't live anywhere close to SF; it's nothing to do with me personally. It's just funny to read the two threads of thought, both written by women:

SF is full of sexist men making unwelcome advances on women

SF dating scene is dead, men won't make a move

Do you not see the slightest humor in that?

Actually, having written it out like that, I wonder if one thread begot the other.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#143

Post by melindajb »

sliverstorm wrote: post #142
melindajb wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. Are you are unable, or unwilling to discriminate between a woman wanting to be hit on in a social situation; and not willing to be harassed or discriminated against in a professional context?

I don't live anywhere close to SF; it's nothing to do with me personally. It's just funny to read the two threads of thought, both written by women: SF is full of sexist men making unwelcome advances on women SF dating scene is dead, men won't make a move Do you not see the slightest humor in that? Actually, having written it out like that, I wonder if one thread begot the other.

again, you're incapable of recognizing these are two entirely different situations? Ok, here's what you sound like.

People complained my shit stinks when I shit in the bathroom. People complained when I took a shit on my grandmother's dining room rug. I get so confused about where to take a shit!

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#144

Post by your_throwaway »

melindajb wrote: post #141
your_throwaway wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the same respect I treat my best friend? Well, first: my best friend is a woman. And could you please enumerate for me what constitutes a sexist joke? My aforementioned best friend (who I have had this conversation with) as well as most of the women friends I've had this conversation with agree that things like "dongle" jokes are hilarious . So are racist jokes (do you seriously not tell any racist jokes? Ever?…

Just because your best friend is a woman doesn't mean you're incapable of being a sexist. For example, she might be one of those women who enforce some pretty crappy old patriarchial shit. I have no idea. But it's not evidence you can use to say you aren't sexist. Are you trolling? I do not tell racist jokes. ever. period. Why would I ever risk offending someone I really care about for something so stupid? I enjoy Ch…

Enlighten me.

And while you're at it: why is okay for Louis CK to make a racist joke, but not okay for you?

If the joke is hurtful, then shouldn't you be against Louis CK telling it? Why are you okay with that? Why are you giving him support for doing something hurtful?

And I didn't say I wasn't capable of being sexist because my best friend is a woman. I said that if I treated a woman at a conference the same way that I treated my best friend, I would probably come across as a creepy asshole.

Similarly, if I treated some guy walking down the street the same way that I treat my best friend, I'd probably get labeled as a creepy asshole.

I've known my best friend for over a decade. I'm close enough with her to have a shorthand for jokes, or mannerisms, that doesn't exist with random people I've just met.

My point was that your post is using some extremely faulty reasoning.

No I'm 12: who cares? What does it matter how old I am? Maybe I am a woman! Then what?

Does what I'm saying depend on my age, or its content?

Do you apply the same logic when assigning validity to things that men and women say? The content doesn't matter, just the person saying it?

That's...dare I say it? Possibly pretty sexist of you.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#145

Post by balls187 »

melindajb wrote: post #102
balls187 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suggesting that it's ok to accept that automatically thinking a woman at a trade show is not an engineer is simply irrational. Agreed, mostly. What if it was a women who was dressed provocatively, i.e. a booth babe? Would that change the circumstance. In the case of the main article, the woman at the trade show WASNT and engineer. But that's beside the point. Slight semantics here--I think it's okay to make assumpt…

Working backwards: Throwing around the word rational on hacker news is a bit misleading, don't you think? The original comments reek of irrationality and bias. Also, "irrational" is a word men love to throw at women when they disagree with what they say. That's typically called "tone policing" but I'm not going to assign you that label at the moment. Regarding the two men, as I've said repeatedly on this thread, it's…

> "irrational" is a word men love to throw at women when they disagree with what they say. That's typically called "tone policing" but I'm not going to assign you that label at the moment.

Fair enough, I understand what you are getting at with labeling. When I say that, however it has nothing to do with you being a woman, and more to do with my fascination with irrational behavior in humans (as described by economists), and formal reasoning.

> wouldn't you rather be known as a man who treats a booth babe like an engineer, than the douchebag who treats an engineer like a booth babe?

Boom. Headshot.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#146

Post by balls187 »

ipince wrote: post #135
balls187 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Suggesting that it's ok to accept that automatically thinking a woman at a trade show is not an engineer is simply irrational. Agreed, mostly. What if it was a women who was dressed provocatively, i.e. a booth babe? Would that change the circumstance. In the case of the main article, the woman at the trade show WASNT and engineer. But that's beside the point. Slight semantics here--I think it's okay to make assumpt…

> For example: if you saw two guys at a company booth, one guy who was slightly overweight, had a unkept beard, and wore a t-shirt that had the Perl deCSS code, and standing next to him, was someone in dockers, a button up shirt, and had a blackberry, you might make some snap assumptions. I think the point here is that even if you (internally) make those assumptions, you shouldn't externalize them. Give everyone the…

Obviously my analogy breaks down--assuming someone with a nerdy shirt might be technical isn't nearly as offensive as assuming someone isn't technical because they're a woman.

Though I agree with you. "Better for others to think you're an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#147

Post by melindajb »

your_throwaway wrote: post #144
melindajb wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because your best friend is a woman doesn't mean you're incapable of being a sexist. For example, she might be one of those women who enforce some pretty crappy old patriarchial shit. I have no idea. But it's not evidence you can use to say you aren't sexist. Are you trolling? I do not tell racist jokes. ever. period. Why would I ever risk offending someone I really care about for something so stupid? I enjoy Ch…

Enlighten me. And while you're at it: why is okay for Louis CK to make a racist joke, but not okay for you? If the joke is hurtful, then shouldn't you be against Louis CK telling it? Why are you okay with that? Why are you giving him support for doing something hurtful? And I didn't say I wasn't capable of being sexist because my best friend is a woman. I said that if I treated a woman at a conference the same way th…

Louis CK, to the best of my knowledge, is not considered a racist. I would not be the best judge of that as a white person, and when I am, I look to my black friends to tell me. I don't make them "explain" it to me. I just accept it. The know better than I do what makes something racist. And usually it's something I had never considered because of my white privilege.

The fault, is not in my logic, but your dogged insistence on reductionist thinking to the absurd. Most of the men around me know how not to be a creep, so I an assure it is possible to tell funny jokes, have beers with coworkers without harassment, and other such things. They will ask if they aren't certain, and they listen if I ask them to stop doing something.

That's what it's all about. Not reducing people to stereotypes. Giving respect immediately and willingly. At least until the other person demonstrates they aren't worth it.

So all this handwaving about not knowing how to behave in the world because the girls send mixed signals? Horseshit. my tribe of male friends, coworkers, mentors, advisors, and family is living proof that men do know how to behave honorably and respectfully in Silicon Valley, even Stanford trained engineers.

So instead of putting your questions at me, put them at yourself, why have you not yet learned what so many other successful men have learned?

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#148

Post by geoka9 »

ericabiz wrote: post #137
geoka9 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure where you got that. Simple. The grand parent herself says that it's unusual for a male to make eye contact with her at a conference, except when somebody is trying to hit on her.

Not what I said.

Not literally, no. But that's the impression I got from your post. Sorry if I misconstrued it.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#149

Post by bayesianhorse »

hueving wrote: post #116
kaitai wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Srsly? Someone's gotta write a program to autopost the stats about men in nursing and men in elementary school teaching, and particularly the way they get promoted faster with less experience. (One source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2012/05/21/a-new-o... ) And srsly? The continuing trope that it's "men who are sexist pigs" who are the problem rather than "people who persist in employing infantile patte…

>And srsly? English, do you speak it? >And complaining about getting hit on in work situations The grandparent was talking about at social events. Not work situations.

Tech events aren't strictly non-work situations...

As a single man I have to say it's a tough balance between women being offended by getting hit on (it's a numbers game, if there is one woman for every ten men in a work place, guess who gets hit on the most) and not doing any dating. I know that on occasion woman have felt offended by my "approach/hitting on" or whatever and I wasn't even aware I was hitting on them. Good/honest intentions just don't cut it in these situations.

I do believe we as men should be more sensitive about this, but it's probably not going to happen. Regulating social behavior and skills is difficult.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#150

Post by bayesianhorse »

sliverstorm wrote: post #107
rodly wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Find a field that has been woman-dominated for the last 50 years. Now put a man in that field, who is rather successful (like yourself in technology), and you will get the exact same result in the contexts you describe. I'm sick of this paradox where men and women are equal and yet men (and only men) are capable of making this mistake. It's simple pattern matching, and when the pattern tells you one thing and it's ac…

Also complaining about getting hit on? Really? A person finds you attractive and wants to talk to you. What a monster. Amusingly enough, I was just reading an article by a woman, complaining that not enough men hit on her in SF.

On the one hand, most men aren't exactly "smooth operators" when it comes to this, on the other hand rejecting someone is usually not pleasant to the one doing the rejecting.
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