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The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

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Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#131

Post by Pherdnut »

Thirdegree wrote: post #78
galago wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be a big horrible cycle here. I attended VMWorld last year in San Francisco and was shocked by how many booths were staffed by attractive women who where just hired as like, temps or something. They were aggressively friendly and seemed to have the single task of getting my contact information as a sales lead. Their knowledge of the products was generally no deeper than what was printed on the promotio…

'Perhaps "booth babes" are part of a successful sales strategy and I'm an outlier.' Not according to Spencer Chen. http://techcrunch.com/2014/01/13/booth-babes-dont-convert/

Can't we all just agree to blame it on the sales guys?

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#132

Post by melindajb »

Pherdnut wrote: post #130
melindajb wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is why pattern matching is bullshit: https://medium.com/best-thing-i-found-online-today/8178b2794... Here, I'll even save you the trouble of clicking: To be direct: Pattern recognition is bullshit voodoo pseudo-science masquerading as objectivity and meritocracy. It’s sexism, racism, ageism, homophobia, and xenophobia dressed up as science. It sickens me.

But oh-so-handy for validating e-mail addresses.

you get an upvote for funny. well done!

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#133

Post by tomca32 »

rodly wrote: post #79
ericabiz wrote: post #14

The situation described at the tradeshow in this article has also happened to me, repeatedly and consistently. The difference? I AM technical. I just also happen to be a woman. I love the tech industry. I've been in it professionally since 1997, and I've run tech startups as a CEO for the past 13 years. And if there's one thing I can count on, it's the consistent, pervasive assumption that I'm not technical. I hate g…

Find a field that has been woman-dominated for the last 50 years. Now put a man in that field, who is rather successful (like yourself in technology), and you will get the exact same result in the contexts you describe. I'm sick of this paradox where men and women are equal and yet men (and only men) are capable of making this mistake. It's simple pattern matching, and when the pattern tells you one thing and it's ac…

From personal experience, I really have to agree.

I'm a male. I'm now an engineer but before I switched careers I was a ballet dancer.

I've heard the phrase "Are you waiting for your girlfriend?" or "Is your girlfriend a dancer?" or some variation of that, countless times when I was at theater/ballet company events/auditions. I hated that, but I couldn't really blame anyone. 90% of other males there were usually just waiting for their girlfriends.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#134

Post by TheMagicHorsey »

Technical people are hard to find, whereas I can get about 100 non-technical ops resumes in 5 minutes from liberal arts majors at top ten schools, who will kick ass at ops.

There are a lot of smart people you can groom into good ops people. There are also a lot of seasoned ops people looking for jobs, if you look outside silicon valley and bring someone here from a business in another city.

Whereas, we can't for the fucking life of us get good mobile developers, programmers with machine learning experience, or robotics experience ... unless we pay large sums and offer great perks.

That's why nobody talks much about, or pays much attention to Ops.

I've been an Ops guy.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#135

Post by ipince »

balls187 wrote: post #86
melindajb wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now that I have the access to reply again. Suggesting that it's ok to accept that automatically thinking a woman at a trade show is not an engineer is simply irrational. We are humans and with that comes the ability to override animal thinking. Dare I say, I expect the person to have that thought to override it, think rationally, and say something other than what most of them do? And is asking for that somehow in and…

> Suggesting that it's ok to accept that automatically thinking a woman at a trade show is not an engineer is simply irrational. Agreed, mostly. What if it was a women who was dressed provocatively, i.e. a booth babe? Would that change the circumstance. In the case of the main article, the woman at the trade show WASNT and engineer. But that's beside the point. Slight semantics here--I think it's okay to make assumpt…

> For example: if you saw two guys at a company booth, one guy who was slightly overweight, had a unkept beard, and wore a t-shirt that had the Perl deCSS code, and standing next to him, was someone in dockers, a button up shirt, and had a blackberry, you might make some snap assumptions.

I think the point here is that even if you (internally) make those assumptions, you shouldn't externalize them. Give everyone the benefit of the doubt, so to speak.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#136

Post by your_throwaway »

lambda wrote: post #121
your_throwaway wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, except when I do start a conversation with you, I'm hitting on you, and probably being "creepy". I have to navigate a mental minefield of "don't say this" "don't say that too much" or "don't be overly aggressive", otherwise I get screamed about on twitter, labeled as a misogynist, and possibly fired from my job. (Uh-oh, I said dongle! Or...[1]meritocracy!) I'm not saying women in tech don't have problems, they…

Dude, it's really not hard to have a technical conversation with someone and not come off as creepy. If you feel like you have to worry about this all the time, there's something seriously off about your interpersonal instincts. I'm a pretty socially awkward nerdy guy, and I've never had a problem with being able to have a technical conversation with a woman without being accused of "mansplaining", "being overly aggr…

We are literally on the exact same page. You're enumerating my point.

Inviting somebody for beers isn't hitting on them, but I have been told by women exactly why this is not okay. (In conversations like this one. This sort of "hey that's not okay" doesn't ever seem to actually come up in real life)

I agree that it's totally normal to compliment people on what they're wearing, and I, like you, do this to my coworkers all the time.

Except, again, there are lots of vocal people screaming how this is not okay.

That's my point. "Normal" human interactions are being cast as not okay by some vocal tech writers, which is what can create a mental minefield.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#137

Post by ericabiz »

geoka9 wrote: post #72
me2i81 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you got that. Treat people professionally and there's no "minefield."

> I'm not sure where you got that. Simple. The grand parent herself says that it's unusual for a male to make eye contact with her at a conference, except when somebody is trying to hit on her.

Not what I said.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#138

Post by melindajb »

sliverstorm wrote: post #107
rodly wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Find a field that has been woman-dominated for the last 50 years. Now put a man in that field, who is rather successful (like yourself in technology), and you will get the exact same result in the contexts you describe. I'm sick of this paradox where men and women are equal and yet men (and only men) are capable of making this mistake. It's simple pattern matching, and when the pattern tells you one thing and it's ac…

Also complaining about getting hit on? Really? A person finds you attractive and wants to talk to you. What a monster. Amusingly enough, I was just reading an article by a woman, complaining that not enough men hit on her in SF.

I'm confused. Are you are unable, or unwilling to discriminate between a woman wanting to be hit on in a social situation; and not willing to be harassed or discriminated against in a professional context?

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#139

Post by your_throwaway »

melindajb wrote: post #119
your_throwaway wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, except when I do start a conversation with you, I'm hitting on you, and probably being "creepy". I have to navigate a mental minefield of "don't say this" "don't say that too much" or "don't be overly aggressive", otherwise I get screamed about on twitter, labeled as a misogynist, and possibly fired from my job. (Uh-oh, I said dongle! Or...[1]meritocracy!) I'm not saying women in tech don't have problems, they…

If you can override the animal instincts to kill other humans, why is it so hard to override your thoughts and just treat all other humans with the same respect you'd give your best friend, at least until you see a valid reason not to? No one is saying that getting a beer after work is bad, or telling jokes is bad, or that thinking is bad. this is hand waving. We're asking you, again, to a) understand that lots of dr…

With the same respect I treat my best friend?

Well, first: my best friend is a woman. And could you please enumerate for me what constitutes a sexist joke?

My aforementioned best friend (who I have had this conversation with) as well as most of the women friends I've had this conversation with agree that things like "dongle" jokes are hilarious.

So are racist jokes (do you seriously not tell any racist jokes? Ever? Do you avoid all of contemporary stand up and sketch comedy while you're at it?)

And very young. Huh? Like how young? Possibly right around the age of most of the people who are attending conferences and hackathons? Right around that 20-30 year old range that constantly gets touted as the age of startup founders on hacker news?

I'm 29. Old by HN standards, but you're right: young.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#140

Post by ipince »

ericabiz wrote: post #14

The situation described at the tradeshow in this article has also happened to me, repeatedly and consistently. The difference? I AM technical. I just also happen to be a woman. I love the tech industry. I've been in it professionally since 1997, and I've run tech startups as a CEO for the past 13 years. And if there's one thing I can count on, it's the consistent, pervasive assumption that I'm not technical. I hate g…

Erica, I don't know the particulars of your situation, but may I suggest that maybe you're reading too much into (some of) this?

I've seen the lack of eye contact problem happen many times, with a mix of genders/races/etc. Sometimes I'm the one being ignored (I'm male); sometimes I feel weird because the person talking is only looking at me and ignoring everyone else in the group. It feels random to me.

IMHO, it points more to a general lack of social skills than a sexist/racist thing. I try not to take it personally. And I try, in my own conversations, to always be very inclusive (e.g. eye contact with everyone, even if I'm answering one particular person's question) and encourage others to be inclusive as well (e.g. deliberately introducing people, asking questions, or simply giving others in the group eye contact even when I'm on the listening end). I think steps like these can go a long way.

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