The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee • Hacker News Board

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#41

Post by OverlordXenu » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 1:09 AM UTC

nicolethenerd wrote: post #37

parfe wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My thought is that it's not because they mean to be rude. It's because they pattern match. I've noticed when folks see the same pattern over and over it's difficult to see outside it. Awful lot of words you used to avoid typing "sexism". Hide behind whatever phrasing you prefer, but automatically assigning a person gender roles out of intellectual laziness embodies sexism.

But it is just pattern matching - 'sexism' seems to connote intent, or at least some kind of discrimination / negativity. Assuming that a woman you meet is more likely to be non-technical than technical is just probability - it's not a great thing, but I do it too, and I am a woman. It doesn't mean that I think women shouldn't be in tech, or that I'm surprised when they are - just more likely than not, in my experien…

It has very little to do with intent. Subconsciously thinking someone with a name usually thought to indicate blackness—like Tyrone—is different is racist. Subconsciously disbelieving that a woman can answer technical questions or is a fighter pilot is sexist. It may not necessarily be your fault, because society and your peers have taught you this, but that doesn't really matter. Especially because you have a responsibility to actively work against stereotypes and treat people as people.

Having intent behind it just makes it worse, really. And "intent" is difficult to define.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#42

Post by AgathaTheWitch » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 1:10 AM UTC

ericabiz wrote: post #14

The situation described at the tradeshow in this article has also happened to me, repeatedly and consistently. The difference? I AM technical. I just also happen to be a woman. I love the tech industry. I've been in it professionally since 1997, and I've run tech startups as a CEO for the past 13 years. And if there's one thing I can count on, it's the consistent, pervasive assumption that I'm not technical. I hate g…

My skin color and gender both connote a number of invalid assumptions. This probably applies to most people at some point in their lives. It just doesn't bother me. I'm sorry if it bothers you and I sympathize with others who are annoyed. I just don't relate.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#43

Post by me2i81 » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 1:16 AM UTC

huherto wrote: post #39

ericabiz wrote: post #14

The situation described at the tradeshow in this article has also happened to me, repeatedly and consistently. The difference? I AM technical. I just also happen to be a woman. I love the tech industry. I've been in it professionally since 1997, and I've run tech startups as a CEO for the past 13 years. And if there's one thing I can count on, it's the consistent, pervasive assumption that I'm not technical. I hate g…

Just a guess. May be they are trying not to appear to be hitting on you. Paraphrasing you ..."Being a man around women is like walking through a maze with minefields at every turn and never knowing which one you'll hit."

I'm not sure where you got that. Treat people professionally and there's no "minefield."

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#44

Post by hobs » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 1:19 AM UTC

theorique wrote: post #6

From the VBScript and complex spreadsheet wrangling required to perform analysis of key organizational metrics to mastery of numerous different specialized softwares and systems in order to perform basic functions of the job ranging from accounting to people operations, non-technical employees must have a bevy of technical skills at the ready every single day. In fact, I had to code a sample app using the company’s A…

That was my immediate thought, irregardless of the gender argument. I work with plenty of non-technical ops people, ALL of them REGARDLESS of intelligence, can not code out of a wet paper bag. I have at various points shown them all how to use basic excel formulas and they still use calculators that would not look out of place in a grade school.

Are they good at what they do? Yes. Does what they do require that type of abstract thinking and computer skills? Not that I have seen, they seem effective at what they do, the lights are on, the place runs smoothly.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#45

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 1:20 AM UTC

nicolethenerd wrote: post #37

parfe wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My thought is that it's not because they mean to be rude. It's because they pattern match. I've noticed when folks see the same pattern over and over it's difficult to see outside it. Awful lot of words you used to avoid typing "sexism". Hide behind whatever phrasing you prefer, but automatically assigning a person gender roles out of intellectual laziness embodies sexism.

But it is just pattern matching - 'sexism' seems to connote intent, or at least some kind of discrimination / negativity. Assuming that a woman you meet is more likely to be non-technical than technical is just probability - it's not a great thing, but I do it too, and I am a woman. It doesn't mean that I think women shouldn't be in tech, or that I'm surprised when they are - just more likely than not, in my experien…

[deleted]

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#46

Post by jv22222 » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 1:25 AM UTC

OverlordXenu wrote: post #41

nicolethenerd wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is just pattern matching - 'sexism' seems to connote intent, or at least some kind of discrimination / negativity. Assuming that a woman you meet is more likely to be non-technical than technical is just probability - it's not a great thing, but I do it too, and I am a woman. It doesn't mean that I think women shouldn't be in tech, or that I'm surprised when they are - just more likely than not, in my experien…

It has very little to do with intent. Subconsciously thinking someone with a name usually thought to indicate blackness—like Tyrone—is different is racist. Subconsciously disbelieving that a woman can answer technical questions or is a fighter pilot is sexist. It may not necessarily be your fault, because society and your peers have taught you this, but that doesn't really matter. Especially because you have a respon…

"Disbelieving"? Or "unaware"? Disbelieving has intent. Unaware is simply not thinking about it. Would you say it is ok to not think about something due to unawareness? Or would you say that was being sexist?

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#47

Post by h1karu » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 1:30 AM UTC

bri3d wrote: post #38

h1karu wrote: post #13

for those who think these type of office manager roles are essential I'll just leave this here: https://37signals.com/remote/

The article lists many things that "operations management" people in early-stage startups do that would be applicable to a remote company as much as an in-person one: taxes, accounts payable, hiring management, equipment management / basic IT, various accounting and finances, travel planning, and so on. Having someone manage operations is just as essential in a remote company as it is in an in-person one. I do agree…

fair point.. although I personally lump accountants in with lawyers as something you can't live without but hopefully don't need full time. Hiring is much easier when you're remote for the reasons already mentioned in the book and for many organizations it's something a small team of developers can handle themselves.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#48

Post by cyphunk » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 1:32 AM UTC

I appreciated the criticism of the article but it largely depends on the company i guess. I know that as a technical person having worked in large companies and startups the office managers were perceived as magicians. They also seem to hold a privileged status in many cases. For one, execs depend on them heavily so they wield influence. In some cases, with startups, they appear to advise the CEO.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#49

Post by melindajb » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 1:32 AM UTC

nicolethenerd wrote: post #37

parfe wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My thought is that it's not because they mean to be rude. It's because they pattern match. I've noticed when folks see the same pattern over and over it's difficult to see outside it. Awful lot of words you used to avoid typing "sexism". Hide behind whatever phrasing you prefer, but automatically assigning a person gender roles out of intellectual laziness embodies sexism.

But it is just pattern matching - 'sexism' seems to connote intent, or at least some kind of discrimination / negativity. Assuming that a woman you meet is more likely to be non-technical than technical is just probability - it's not a great thing, but I do it too, and I am a woman. It doesn't mean that I think women shouldn't be in tech, or that I'm surprised when they are - just more likely than not, in my experien…

Here is why pattern matching is bullshit:

https://medium.com/best-thing-i-found-online-today/8178b2794...

Here, I'll even save you the trouble of clicking:

To be direct: Pattern recognition is bullshit voodoo pseudo-science masquerading as objectivity and meritocracy. It’s sexism, racism, ageism, homophobia, and xenophobia dressed up as science. It sickens me.

Re: The Myth of the Non-Technical Startup Employee

#50

Post by jacquesc » Tue, Mar 18, 2014, 1:33 AM UTC

Very well written article. Operations people are driving a new wave of real world/tech hybrid companies and I think they need a lot more respect for their contributions.

One nit, you admonish (rightly) people for thinking just because you are a nontechy that you don't understand the product. But then you make a similar mistake by accusing the young nerdy male engineer who is devouring the beef jerky of not being street wise enough to be able to order lunch.

Simpler explanation: you've set up the expectation that he can eat on the company dime so he's going to take full advantage of that. He can order lunch just fine he just doesn't want to pay for it.

Give him the company credit card (or a company seamless account) and 'problem solved'. Except it's not really a problem since it's better for the company if you can have him working around the company catering times.