Holacracy is Bullshit • Hacker News Board

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#81

Post by pron » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 6:42 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #76

pron wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren't pet theories but an excellent starting point for a discussion. I would have expected a community of smart individuals to sincerely examine these accusations, even if they are not the whole story behind this current scandal, because we could only benefit from such a discussion. That this article has been flagged by several people only demonstrates a great level of immaturity and that we, as an industry, m…

[deleted]

When you're a woman in tech and you're hurt by the community reaction, here on HN as elsewhere, indignation certainly has its place. Catherine Bracy, the author of this post, is an expert on issues of sexism in Silicon Valley, and what she says should carry weight here. The article I posted yesterday was written in the early 70s, and discussed problems in different (though perhaps strangely similar) settings. The words of a modern day expert well versed in Silicon Valley culture should certainly find their place here. I think it reflects badly on this community that HN was allowed to be indignant in the Aaron Swartz and Ed Snowden cases but not in this. This high standard of not adding new information to the discussion was not applied in those cases, as I distinctly remember the front page flooded with at least 5 similar stories on Snowden/Swartz (articles were flagged back then only after a dozen or so stories, and we're not there yet). In fact, HN should be reeling with indignation against all those who suddenly become cool observers and expert rhetoricians calling to suspend judgment.

Whatever the particulars of the GitHub scandal turn out to be don't matter (for the purpose of this discussion). What better opportunity is there to discuss the very real problem of underrepresentation of women in SV than this? And what you call "bait" others might call raising awareness. This isn't the NRA talking after a school shootout, but someone discussing what is possibly the biggest problem in SV culture today as a response to a painful, though far from tragic event.

I also find it problematic that a post by a prominent woman is found to be "indignant and lacking in information", while far worse stupidities by race-car driving programmers are featured prominently. At the very least, I think some affirmative action wouldn't hurt us. In fact, this could be our finest moment, and we're squandering it.

ADD: it is perhaps ironic that Bracy implies that this revulsion from politics in SV is simply a form of a very destructive kind of politics, and flagging this story is precisely a case in point. It is a strong political statement that only nurtures what I think is very bad politics.

I urge you to unflag the story unless you strongly believe that its appearance on the front page is somehow bad for HN.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#82

Post by Crito » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 6:42 PM UTC

rjknight wrote: post #42

The problem with management isn’t managers, the problem with management is bad managers. So, on the one hand, we have what we might call the Lord of the Flies narrative - that Github's pseudo-anarchic non-management just enables people's worst traits to come to the surface; it doesn't remove power imbalances, it just hides them and makes it harder to challenge illegitimate use of that power because it's harder to ide…

I fear that having several specialized and limited hierarchies built around the same group of people would create "I have eight different bosses right now." type situations, where a middle of the road employee might have a boss for 'discipline', a boss for 'design', a boss for 'engineering', etc.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#83

Post by alukima » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 6:42 PM UTC

mbillie1 wrote: post #38

Eh. I worked at a reasonably holacratic/flat organization (a high-profile agile consultancy, actually), and when I say it was flat, I didn't know who my boss was, or who to give notice to when I quit. It was honestly very flat, and in no sense did this mean "secretly rich white guys ran the show." It did lead to a bit more cliqueyness than might otherwise have been desired. I think that a holacracy, like most things…

I think I work at the "high-profile agile consultancy" you're talking about.

I've been there two months and I still have no idea who I talk to about X, where X is a variety of things. Before getting staffed on a project I spent time working on whatever I wanted to learn. At several points I wondered if there was someone I should check in with. It felt so weird to just do what I wanted without having to get permission or justify it to someone.

That said, I don't think I could ever go back to reporting to a manager, especially a non-technical manager.

>Maybe it's too much to ask that we say "different things work for different groups of people"?

I couldn't agree more. I think the flat model works at my company because harassment wouldn't be tolerated by anyone. I turned down positions at startups because their culture was too fratty. Even if they had a management system I wouldn't have felt comfortable bringing up issues.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#84

Post by saraid216 » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 6:56 PM UTC

mbillie1 wrote: post #38

Eh. I worked at a reasonably holacratic/flat organization (a high-profile agile consultancy, actually), and when I say it was flat, I didn't know who my boss was, or who to give notice to when I quit. It was honestly very flat, and in no sense did this mean "secretly rich white guys ran the show." It did lead to a bit more cliqueyness than might otherwise have been desired. I think that a holacracy, like most things…

> Maybe it's too much to ask that we say "different things work for different groups of people"?

Weak opinions make for weak conversation, especially between strangers. All the participants need the ability to appreciate nuanced positions in order to gain value from weak opinions.

This isn't unrelated, either; it's one of the reasons that cliques form in the first place. The extreme position is inevitably simpler than moderate ones, and thus acts as a more solid common ground for group formation. And it's also why we have institutional structures: things like accredited universities and portfolios and interview loops: they help filter for people who can appreciate the relevant nuance so that milder and deeper conversations are easier to come by.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#85

Post by cbracy » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 6:57 PM UTC

I added an edit here, pointing out that GitHub wasn't actually employing holacracy. That was my (pre-breakfast) sloppiness. My main point still stands, though. And Tom Preston-Werner describes his "management" structure here in pretty great detail so we do have some insight into what was actually going on inside GitHub: http://www.oscon.com/oscon2013/public/schedule/detail/29555

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#86

Post by saraid216 » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 6:59 PM UTC

fleitz wrote: post #68

matthewmacleod wrote: post #31

This is fucking stupid, given we have almost literally no information about what has happened at Github, nor the extent to which any events were due to an absence of hierarchy. I really wish people would dial back on the gloating promotion of their own pet theories and maybe wait until a little bit more information is available before jumping to conclusions.

Github is the nerds version of MH370. People who weren't there arguing about how something they know nothing about actually happened and what can be done to prevent it. I think to prevent something like this happening again we need to ensure employees can't disable their transponders, either that or make sure we have more power structures in the cockpit.

It's cute that you think nerds aren't talking about MH370.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#87

Post by patrickmay » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 7:02 PM UTC

rjknight wrote: post #42

The problem with management isn’t managers, the problem with management is bad managers. So, on the one hand, we have what we might call the Lord of the Flies narrative - that Github's pseudo-anarchic non-management just enables people's worst traits to come to the surface; it doesn't remove power imbalances, it just hides them and makes it harder to challenge illegitimate use of that power because it's harder to ide…

> In a nutshell, he suggests that we can avoid power imbalances by ensuring that natural and legitimate imbalances within different 'spheres' do not spill over into other ones. In the context of tech companies, we might have, say, a 'discipline' sphere where managers are in charge, a 'technical' sphere where engineers are in charge, a 'design' sphere with designers in charge, and so on. Being the top engineer doesn't give you the right to overrule a designer on a design question, and being a top manager doesn't give you the right to overrule an engineer on a technical question. If we're dealing with a personal conflict, this falls under the jurisdiction of management, and they should have full authority to resolve it. If we're dealing with a technical debate, that should be resolved by engineers

I don't disagree with the theory, but in practice power would come down to who gets to decide which sphere applies.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#88

Post by gruseom » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 7:07 PM UTC

pron wrote: post #81

[deleted] wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

When you're a woman in tech and you're hurt by the community reaction, here on HN as elsewhere, indignation certainly has its place. Catherine Bracy, the author of this post, is an expert on issues of sexism in Silicon Valley, and what she says should carry weight here. The article I posted yesterday was written in the early 70s, and discussed problems in different (though perhaps strangely similar) settings. The wor…

I deleted my comment. Sorry for denting the thread.

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#89

Post by pron » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 7:18 PM UTC

matthewmacleod wrote: post #31

This is fucking stupid, given we have almost literally no information about what has happened at Github, nor the extent to which any events were due to an absence of hierarchy. I really wish people would dial back on the gloating promotion of their own pet theories and maybe wait until a little bit more information is available before jumping to conclusions.

> I really wish people would dial back on the gloating promotion of their own pet theories and maybe wait until a little bit more information is available before jumping to conclusions.

Like you did here, and I quote: "The proper target for anger in this case is the NSA and the government which allowed this to happen"? But mention sexism and everybody's a fucking lawyer waiting for all sides to be heard. Double standard?

Re: Holacracy is Bullshit

#90

Post by mbillie1 » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 7:22 PM UTC

saraid216 wrote: post #84

mbillie1 wrote: post #38

Eh. I worked at a reasonably holacratic/flat organization (a high-profile agile consultancy, actually), and when I say it was flat, I didn't know who my boss was, or who to give notice to when I quit. It was honestly very flat, and in no sense did this mean "secretly rich white guys ran the show." It did lead to a bit more cliqueyness than might otherwise have been desired. I think that a holacracy, like most things…

> Maybe it's too much to ask that we say "different things work for different groups of people"? Weak opinions make for weak conversation, especially between strangers. All the participants need the ability to appreciate nuanced positions in order to gain value from weak opinions. This isn't unrelated, either; it's one of the reasons that cliques form in the first place. The extreme position is inevitably simpler tha…

> The extreme position is inevitably simpler than moderate ones, and thus acts as a more solid common ground for group formation.

While I certainly agree with you that this is true, and while I am certainly not surprised finding this sort of thing on HN, it would be nice if discussions could start from less extreme positions. In my weak opinion, anyway ;)