Update on Julie Horvath's Departure • Hacker News Board

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#391

Post by sp332 » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 11:53 AM UTC

ps4fanboy wrote: post #225

sp332 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The word "feminism" describes a lot more that just that one ideology. There are lots of feminist movements and "agendas" and the only thing they have in common is advocating equality for women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

This "feminism can be anything" stance is getting really old, is it really everything good and nothing bad?

I don't see Horvath, or anyone else in this conversation, using tw268's definition of feminism. That's why it's misleading for this conversation. Horvath is criticizing her own feminist framework, so obviously it's not all good.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#392

Post by michaelmior » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 11:59 AM UTC

bogs_carut wrote: post #79

joshyeager wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that the wife's actions would have been even less acceptable if she were male. The stigma is caused by the repeated unprofessional actions she did, and made worse by the fact that she was not even an employee.

Why should gender affect the acceptability of one's behavior?

Agreed. Perhaps it was meant the the actions would be seen as less acceptable.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#393

Post by h1karu » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 12:03 PM UTC

ketralnis wrote: post #244

h1karu wrote: post #114

Julie was banging a co-worker so why is she acting surprised when drama happened ? I don't get it.

(1) Her "banging" a co-worker is his and her problem, not yours (2) Neither side claims that said drama was related to said "banging" (3) Grow up

There's a double standard out there. Single women are expected to sleep with coworkers and if drama arises then it's not their fault, but men are expected to refrain from sleeping with coworkers and if relationship drama arises then it's always the man's fault if he dipped his pen in company ink. Your remark "grow up" is merely a logical fallacy used to conceal this double standard.

The "banging" was mentioned in the techcrunch article so it's definitely on-topic. How do you know that the other woman's jealousy was not aroused by Julie's projection of sexuality into the workplace via her demonstration of willingness to hook up with employees ?

When Julie hooked up with an employee she was demonstrating that in general she's willing to hook up with employees which put her on the other women's radar as a potential personal/political rival. I seriously doubt the other woman would have felt threatened if Julie's romantic foray hadn't come into play..

Again.. a reasonable guy would never have made a post about this kind of thing on hackernews instead he would have just accepted the drama as the consequence of his risky choice to engage in romance in the workplace. He would have just bit the bullet and moved on. Julie on the other hand is wilding out and she comes off as an unprofessional drama queen.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#394

Post by BSousa » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 12:13 PM UTC

mareofnight wrote: post #344

hnriot wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty odd for women to be hula hooping, I've never seen that, but Julia's reaction to is is bananas. How does that make her feel threatened? Can't she just ignore it, of course men are going to look, did the women think nobody would notice? To me this belittles any legitimate claim she might have, if she's this irrational about this event, then it clouds my view of other things she says. She also sounds confuse…

It makes a person feel threatened because it implies that your co-workers think of /you/ as eye candy too. And if that's all you are, then you can't trust others to take you and your needs seriously. You can't deal with it by ignoring it, because it's not the staring that's the problem, it's what it indicates about how the gawkers view their female coworkers. (How you're viewed matters because that affects whether an…

But wasn't she dating someone that worked there? (was she already dating before joining GitHub or did they meet there?) This for me says that she think it is ok for there to be some kind of attraction between co-workers, so I don't see how men gawking to two women hula hooping is the last straw for her.

Of course, if they were screaming 'take it off' or similar, I would agree, but supposedly attractive women doing activities that make their bodies 'jiggle' in a public setting and expect men not to look or stare is ridiculous, and going from that to 'not feeling safe' is too much of a stretch. I understand maybe the previous issues colored her understanding of the situation, but it does leave a bad feeling in my gut that she may just be a drama queen which makes me question her reports on the other issues.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#395

Post by michaelochurch » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 12:16 PM UTC

PakG1 wrote: post #260

The actions that Github has taken lends credibility to what Horvath has said. Of course, we'll not know the whole truth until sometime in the future, if ever. Even if this episode were only hypothetical, this episode reminds me that many people have poor decision-making abilities, even if they are super intelligent. A co-founder of a company like Github would and should have a very good brain and very good decision-m…

Having perhaps made a poor marriage decision

This was my thought as well. I don't know who the founder is, or what is going on here, but I feel like people are going to be quick to villainize that founder over the actions of his wife, as if they function as one unit.

In reality, if a founder's spouse has that kind of power over the founder's employees, that founder is very likely to be in a divorce within 5 years. In healthy marriages, people don't interfere with their spouses' careers. Support is different from meddling. If JAH's allegations are true, I feel pity rather than anger toward that founder, because it means his marriage is on the rocks and he might not even know it yet.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#396

Post by Pacabel » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 12:24 PM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #97

stevenelliottjr wrote: post #47

Pretty ridiculous, I'm sure she'll land on her feet but these startup cultures are a disaster. Hula hoops? No clear management of any kind? I'm all for freedom of expression and all that but try and act like an adult for once in your life and put the hula hoops down.

What is wrong with hula hoops? I have (adult) friends who dance for fun, play with hula hoops, play with poi balls and lots of other things. There is nothing wrong with these things. No clear management of any kind is a big problem, but the rest of what you say is, as you put it, pretty ridiculous .

Nobody has suggested there's anything wrong with playing with hula hoops, even when it's adults doing it. It just doesn't seem like something that should be done at work, or at work-related events.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#397

Post by pron » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 12:26 PM UTC

Karn wrote: post #369

SolarNet wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a source for the "at a party" part? The majority of my comments have been predicated that this was in a work environment. The Horvath techcrunch article states "at the office". More to the point: Yes because women moving their hips means they automatically want to be considered for their sexual characteristics. /sarcasm Admittedly, if this was at a party and they were hula hooping then sure no problem at…

> Do you have a source https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7408466 > Yes because women moving their hips means they automatically want to be considered for their sexual characteristics. /sarcasm Actually, yes, they do. If you don't know this then either you're very inexperienced with women or you're the kind of guy they willingly keep in the dark about what they want.

You're obviously an expert anthropologist and psychologist, so perhaps you can explain why is it that women find the need to flaunt their "sexual characteristic" at a workplace party (or any party for that matter)? Is this behavior common among women of all cultures? Has it been common throughout the ages? Is it a result of women's peculiar biology or perhaps of another mysterious dynamics? Is this practice commonly regarded as pleasant among human females? And what is it exactly that they want if they hope to achieve it with this colorful behavior (I once heard that human females may want a stable male partner to help rear their young; is this "hula-hooping at a party" the best evolutionary strategy to obtain that goal)? Also, males of lesser species often display their buttocks prominently to attract females. Is this accepted behavior among humans, too? Is it common practice at GitHub?

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#398

Post by Pacabel » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 12:29 PM UTC

dobbsbob wrote: post #239

stevenelliottjr wrote: post #47

Pretty ridiculous, I'm sure she'll land on her feet but these startup cultures are a disaster. Hula hoops? No clear management of any kind? I'm all for freedom of expression and all that but try and act like an adult for once in your life and put the hula hoops down.

This place sounds like highschool. People bored so music and hula hoops, coworkers dating, a principals office instead of managers, passive aggressive bullshit. I go to work, code, learn, improve and gtfo. No office parties, no cliques of bros, no boss trying to be my friend, no team events or forced 'fun'. Just professional work and money which is the only reason I'm there.

I really don't know what exactly it is, but there's something about the Ruby community that seems to draw in immaturity, and them amplify it.

This pervasive immaturity does tend to result in things going sour, and for some reason it always tends to happen in a very dramatic and public manner.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#399

Post by watwut » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 12:30 PM UTC

wcummings wrote: post #228

hueving wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good thing you aren't a manager. Which half is it that's good enough for termination? Reverting a commit, or what?

A coworker showing up uninvited to her house and making an awkward and uninvited advance, or systematically reverting commits as vengeance. I made a vague statement, but I think "reverting a commit" is definitely minimizing what she claims happened

Seriously? You would fire employee for making an awkward and advance? I can see firing person for reverting commits as vengeance. I can see firing person for harassing someone or if he was threatening.

I can not see it reasonable to fire employee for asking another one on date once, even if it was awkward and unexpected.

Maybe I'm weird, but I do not see it employers business to police relationships of their adult employees, as long as they do not cross the line described above.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#400

Post by cpks » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 12:43 PM UTC

This is a textbook response to a harassment issue. It is extremely professional. You put the accused on paid leave. You do not fire them. If the accuser is correct, this prevents further damage. If the accuser is incorrect, this prevents permanent damage to the accused.

You contact a full internal investigation, and you do not issue any statements biased either way until you have full information from that investigation. At the end of the investigation, you either bring back the accused employees if they appear innocent, or lay them off if they appear guilty.

This is absolutely the right thing to do. I understand the Internet would like companies to go in with pitchforks before investigating. That is wrong. In the majority of discrimination cases, the accuser is wrong (for example, the accused is an equal-opportunity-asshole, but the accuser feels targeted). When the accuser is right, you want to know the level and details before acting in any irreversible way (and a public statement, aside from potentially being libel, is irreversible).

The Internet's attention span is the Internet's problem -- not github's.