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Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

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Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#331

Post by mtrimpe »

md224 wrote: post #313
aceperry wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"People: when did our brains melt and spill out of our ears?" When the topic is as controversial as sexism in tech and the workplace. Or whatever the flashpoint happens to be at the moment. Like sequoia, I've noticed that controversial topics brings out the most incredible responses from both sides, and often with very little definitive evidence. To me, this is a sign of how deeply felt this topic is, and how much it…

> Like sequoia, I've noticed that controversial topics brings out the most incredible responses from both sides, and often with very little definitive evidence. To me, this is a sign of how deeply felt this topic is, and how much it is just under the surface of our thoughts, ready to explode when an appropriate trigger occurs. I'm not sure if you were framing this as a net negative or positive, but I actually do appr…

It seems that the flamewar detector (although I think it actually used to be flagging mostly) has been adjusted somewhat, or at least given a manual override for worthy discussions.

I can reassure you that this thread would have quickly been flagged off just a few months ago.

I'm guessing it's due to the fair amount of criticism PG received (from myself included) over how the flamewar-filter censored sensitive, yet important, discussions just like the ones this story sparked.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#332

Post by brazzy »

tw268 wrote: post #96
comrh wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, rage against feminism... the radical notion that women are people.

Feminism is a cultural Marxist ideology which tries to explain the world through the lens of class conflict - an overclass (male) which is oppressive and therefore evil and an underclass (female) which is oppressed and therefore good. This is why it is not considered oppression when men die young or go to prison more often than women and it is not a problem when men are underrepresented in higher ed - men can't be op…

You have not the faintest trace of an idea what feminism or Marxism are. This is the most idiotic thing I have read all week. OK, it's Monday morning, but I give it a good chance to stand...

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#333

Post by tracker1 »

freshfunk wrote: post #314
hrktb wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This statement has more meaning that you are willing to concede. If they are starting now to investigate, it means that when troubles were occuring, or even when Julia H. gave her demission, they didn't care enough to investigate thoroughly (perhaps they have other priorities, that's just a fact). This in itself is not good looking, and I feel that from there whatever really happened, they won't have the full version…

Hogwash. Companies always say they will open an investigation. In the least, it buys a little time for the story to die down and the next big stories to hit the media cycle.

The tech industry tends to be a bit more long memory minded than most. I still haven't purchased a Sony product since the CDs with malware incident a long time ago. Though I still work with MS technology, and use their products in the workplace, I've been slowly able to replace their products in my life and this is from decisions they made well over a decade ago.

I admit, I do care about things more than most. My workgroup, and much of the company I work for migrated to github enterprise (and a lot in github public) about a year ago. These kinds of things sour opinion. There are differences between a single bad actor/incident and a systemic problem in a toxic workplace. We don't really know what this is, but it was clearly more than at least one person was willing to put up with.

It's bound to be difficult working in an environment where 4:5 of your peers are the other gender. I worked in a couple of workplaces when I was younger where I was the only male. It was rather eye opening and sometimes uncomfortable to say the least.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#334

Post by trhway »

duncan_bayne wrote: post #272
balls187 wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely. I think Julie should have spoken to both groups, telling the guys it's not cool to gawk at women, and tell the women if they want to hula hoop, do it some place more private.

> and tell the women if they want to hula hoop, do it some place more private. Indeed. And just in case men still gawked at them, she could have brought some free niqab to work for them to wear. http://www.jesusandmo.net/strips/2013-09-18.png

if we reverse the genders, do you think no woman would complain (or just gawk) if she saw this happening in the office

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrA5zL9u5NE&feature=player_de...

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#335

Post by bosch »

phreanix wrote: post #91
Bahamut wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was also my first reaction as well - the real question is how they followup this response, but this is the only correct move at this juncture.

I think the follow up will be more critical, especially the public explanation. That will have the potential to either strengthen GH's credibility or destroy it.

Why should they give a public explanation for something that should've stayed internal in the first place? This should've stayed between the OP, GitHub and GH's HR team.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#336

Post by PakG1 »

tomp wrote: post #323
PakG1 wrote: post #260

The actions that Github has taken lends credibility to what Horvath has said. Of course, we'll not know the whole truth until sometime in the future, if ever. Even if this episode were only hypothetical, this episode reminds me that many people have poor decision-making abilities, even if they are super intelligent. A co-founder of a company like Github would and should have a very good brain and very good decision-m…

Wow, you make it sound so easy. > Not being able to communicate with people and ascertain the truth of the matter. Someone had to lie to cause him to accuse Horvath of lying: either his wife lied or Horvath lied, and he didn't appear to do a good job of getting the truth and resolving the situation. Sure, and a good managers should have no problem figuring out things that can take police and the courts years and year…

> Wow, you make it sound so easy.

I think you misread me. I believe I made it pretty clear that I think that people from all walks of life do not find it easy to make good decisions. I don't believe it is so easy. I talk as one who has made many poor decisions myself.

> How is that relevant, and what exactly does that even mean?

I really don't want to get into this, mainly because we don't have enough information. But the gist is what I've stated, that he may have entered into a marriage with a selfish and megalomaniac woman who cares more about herself than him. Again, we don't have enough information to confirm, but the questions are asked because there are allegations of such behaviour.

And for the record, I have seen plenty of good, high-quality marriages where doing what married people should do does not become public incidents (i.e. they are able to work out their issues in the way you describe, but in private so that they don't become public spectacles).

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#337

Post by brazzy »

linuxhansl wrote: post #293

I wish we could stop this. Women in software is an important topic. This specific issue on the other hand is just a he-said-she-said soap opera. Nobody but the folks directly involved here know what really happened. Everything else is useless.

The problem is that it's always he-said-she-said, especially in the worst cases.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#338

Post by mareofnight »

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #208

Of course we may never know for sure exactly what was said (unless everything was secretly recorded somehow... NSA - data, please), but my initial reaction is that this story sounds a bit... exaggerated. Were things said that shouldn't have been said? Probably so. But here's the way I read it from TC: Let's look at what Horvath claims: > character started being discussed in inappropriate places like on pull requests…

Thank you for making the point that what happened doesn't necessarily imply gender discrimination. After reading what's come out recently, it looks like there were serious interpersonal problems of some kind, but for the part about the one founder and his wife, Horvath's gender doesn't seem to come into it.

The parts that did seem clearly gender-related to me were the coworker who replaced her code after she turned him down, and the thing about hula hooping. Those do indicate a serious failure to make a good workplace culture. But so far, that problem looks separate from her conflict with the founder and his wife.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#339

Post by SolarNet »

tomp wrote: post #324
SolarNet wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually of all of these the last one is the only one I think your counter is flat out wrong (all the others seem plausible enough). Why? Because gawking at other co-workers (regardless of genders) in a casual environment is not ok. In a casual work environment people often do light exercise, and they need to feel comfortable to do that without being turned into sex objects. I would hope the men in question have enou…

> You are basically using the same logic as countries that require burqas in public. Noone is saying that women shouldn't be hula-hooping, we're just saying that it's not wrong for others (men included) to watch them if they do. You, on the other hand, are saying that men should avert their gazes to avoid making women uncomfortable, which is much closer to the burqa logic, albeit with genders reversed.

I'm not saying it's wrong for them to watch. I'm saying it's wrong for them to gawk, to such an extent that other employees don't feel safe in the work environment.

Admittedly we only have Horvath's version, and to be fair she was dealing with two (three?) other people who were apparently completely out of line.

I'm saying both genders should be to do some hoola hooping with no one feeling like anyone is being sexually objectified. There are comments in this little subthread about how people think this whole little episode is ridiculous regardless of genders. Those are the people who work in environments where they feel safe to do these things, the fact that Horvath apparently didn't is a problem, whether caused by github in general, or specific people with in it, the jury is still out.

But my point was that this event can not be marginalized due to the logic that it's not the men's fault because the women were being seductive. It can be subject to scrutiny because of the personal feelings involved.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#340

Post by ojii »

n1ghtmare_ wrote: post #307

Honestly If all of this is true, then obviously what happened is wrong, but I don't really see the sexism in this whole thing. Is it the houla-hoops thingy ? Because I gotta tell you if 2 dudes start doing houla-hoops where I work everybody will stop and watch ... Just because it's ... I dunno weird ? funny ? unusual ? Am I missing something ?

I also didn't see the connection at first, but as I understand it the sexism claim comes from the implication that her experiences are at least partially due to her gender. as in, the situations were handled the way they were because she's a woman. as I read her side, the hoola hooping was more so to show an example of the allegedly sexist culture at GitHub.
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