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Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

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Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#271

Post by balls187 »

SolarNet wrote: post #265
balls187 wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if they weren't gawking, but instead watching? If you are hula hooping out in the open, I don't think it's fair to expect people to look away, no more than it is to expect people to look away if you were playing the hula hoop minigame in Wii Fit. Gawking and making people feel uncomfortable = bad. Watching coworkers make fools of themselves = priceless. > You are basically advocating the position of countries th…

Your first point is valid. It depends on what actually happened. But the OP's comment: "As for the hula hooping... you're telling me that two women hula hooping to music in the workplace is perfectly appropriate, but when the other people nearby (who are going to be mostly males if the majority of employees are male - go figure) suddenly notice, that's the inappropriate part? Really?". Is the part that bothered me, t…

> The logic there that I have a problem with is that it's the women's fault for being attractive, and that the man isn't at as much fault for being attracted to it because the women are doing something attractive.

I totally agree with this.

It's akin to people saying things like "...asked to be assaulted because she was at the club/dressed provacatively/is a flirt."

What isn't clear is if the hulahoopers felt uncomfortable, or was it just Horvath. Again speculating wildly, I wonder if she is more sensitive to gender issues (perhaps even classified as overly sensitive)?

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#272

Post by duncan_bayne »

balls187 wrote: post #247
sockgrant wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a casual work environment people often do light exercise Could you elaborate on this? In the work environments I've been in, people go to the gym or outside to work out. I've never been in a work environment where it's acceptable to do your exercising in the office space. What are you talking about -- yoga, bicep curls, jogging, jumping jacks? I've worked at extremely liberal companies but that kind of stuff doe…

Definitely. I think Julie should have spoken to both groups, telling the guys it's not cool to gawk at women, and tell the women if they want to hula hoop, do it some place more private.

> and tell the women if they want to hula hoop, do it some place more private.

Indeed. And just in case men still gawked at them, she could have brought some free niqab to work for them to wear.

http://www.jesusandmo.net/strips/2013-09-18.png

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#273

Post by shepbook »

chris11 wrote: post #61
joshbert wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the statement is good. I only wish they'd addressed the concerns that were raised regarding them having access to/messing with private repos.

I didn't quite read the statement as saying the founder's wife had access to private repos. I just read it as saying that the founder's wife claimed to have access to private company communication, specifically chat logs only intended for github employees. But a statement clearing the concerns up would be nice.

They use campfire so giving anyone access to the chat logs would be as simple as adding them. They could then look at any logged history (almost all of it, unless the room was locked) and search through it however they liked.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#274

Post by jmspring »

skywhopper wrote: post #4

It's good to see this statement out of Github. The general tone and specifically the mention of the founder's wife in this post gives a huge amount of credence to Julie's claims. I hope Github follows through on this with as much sincerity and determination as this post implies.

I'm curious if the company itself took this up or if board pressure played a part. It is sad that the events transpired as they did with out management stepping up earlier.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#275

Post by smtddr »

tw268 wrote: post #30
laureny wrote: post #21

> We know we have to take action and have begun a full investigation. While that’s ongoing, and effective immediately, the relevant founder has been put on leave, as has the referenced GitHub engineer. Pretty much a full admission that everything that Julie said is true. This is great news, but putting these people on leave seems to be too nice. It's clear that these two people obey ethics that are in direct oppposit…

GitHub is known to have a dubstep and IPA culture. If they want to be a standard bearer for feminism in tech, the transition is going to be difficult and they are going to take some hits. The two cultures don't mix well. It sounds like GitHub is going to have to become more stale and corporate to survive as a larger company, which is inevitable, but hastened by their own choices.

http://www.thegirlsare.com/2011/05/31/top-5-dubstep/

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#276

Post by ssorallen »

JeremyMorgan wrote: post #86

Well that pretty much confirms what Julie said was true. Kudos to GitHub for not trying to sweep things under the rug.

> pretty much confirms

The post only states that the founder's wife will no longer be permitted in the office. It neither confirms nor denies anything. This post is cleverly crafted but is not a confirmation of any of Horvath's claims.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#277

Post by sockgrant »

SolarNet wrote: post #255
sockgrant wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In a casual work environment people often do light exercise Could you elaborate on this? In the work environments I've been in, people go to the gym or outside to work out. I've never been in a work environment where it's acceptable to do your exercising in the office space. What are you talking about -- yoga, bicep curls, jogging, jumping jacks? I've worked at extremely liberal companies but that kind of stuff doe…

> Could you elaborate on this? I've seen yoga, weights, and those things you compress, basically stuff to get the blood flowing again. Hoola hooping is probably a bit more admittedly, but not that extreme. Especially since it sounds like it was happening outside. > I don't think it's a person's right to hula hoop in an office and then be upset when they attract the attention of the rest of the office, regardless of s…

> it implies a work environment where it is ok to sexually objectify your co-workers (or that seems to be how she took it)

What? This is a case where two people did something unusual in a work environment and garnered the attention of their coworkers. That's expected. It's unexpected that you think it necessarily implies sexual objectification.

Go stand in the middle of your office tomorrow and hoola hoop. Whatever sex you are, and whatever sex your coworkers are, I promise you'll get looks for long enough to be considered gawking :) If you choose to complain to HR that you were sexually objectified, well, that's up to you.

I'm not saying it Wasn't sexual objectification, just that to gawk at something unusual in the office doesn't necessarily imply sexual objectification.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#278

Post by MarkTee »

fpgeek wrote: post #155
MarkTee wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not PR, HR (i.e Human Resources). In other words, someone who should have been working to clean up this mess months ago.

Absent a time machine, how could a hire in January have been working to clean up this mess "months ago"? Blame the CEO and the rest of the management team for not hiring a good HR person sooner if you want, but I don't see how you fault the person who just walked into this mess. Unless you're blaming them for not seeing the mess or walking into it with their eyes open. To me, that seems counterproductive. Having peop…

Sorry, for some reason I was thinking that they were hired in January of 2013.

I wasn't suggesting that HR bring forth radical change, either, merely recognize the problems and work towards finding a solution (even though that would have been extremely difficult in itself, considering how little the executives seemed to help).

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#279

Post by achompas »

leccine wrote: post #234
lstamour wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is gang rape really only one step removed from hula hooping or is that the only meaning of "unsafe" behaviour you can think of? Having a safe work environment can simply mean being treated professionally and equally. I mean, sexual harassment has a wide scope from "she knew she wanted it," to "it was uncomfortable or rude," and unsafe should cover all of the above. Really, the unsafe refers to a perception that safet…

Watching your co-workers playing hula hoop makes you feel unsafe? Even if it does, how would you present this to court? You think this is enough legal ground for sexual harassment? Come on... The world is the way how we shape it and I definitely don't want to live in a world when I can't do something silly with my co-workers without watching out for feminists or other frustrated hatred people around us.

Out of context, maybe the hula-hooping is harmless. Whatever, fine. Now consider the hula-hooping when

> a coworker hit on you and messed with your work after you shot him down, and

> a founder's wife -- someone with significant power at the company -- attempts to inject herself into your relationship and intimidates you

> you seemingly have nowhere to go to discuss these issues, after speaking with another founder does not change your working atmosphere

Again, as someone who supposedly understands oppression in the workplace, you're not empathizing with someone who claims to have experienced it.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#280

Post by acjohnson55 »

qdog wrote: post #159
leccine wrote: post #13

Well Julie's story stinks. Let me just quote the last thigs she wrote and work backwards from that. "Two women, one of whom I work with and adore, and a friend of hers were hula hooping to some music. I didn’t have a problem with this. What I did have a problem with is the line of men sitting on one bench facing the hoopers and gawking at them. It looked like something out of a strip club. When I brought this up to m…

I worked somewhere where a female co-worker hired a "stripper-gram" or something for another male co-worker's birthday in the office. I was single and not even dating at the time, but felt extremely uncomfortable with an actual stripper in the office, myself. So, even though they seemed to be consenting, I didn't appreciate having a stripper in the office, and neither did several of my (also male) coworkers. I can im…

Yeah, that's super inappropriate, whether the person who ordered the stripper was female or not.
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