Update on Julie Horvath's Departure • Hacker News Board

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#251

Post by leccine » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:26 AM UTC

qdog wrote: post #214

hnriot wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty odd for women to be hula hooping, I've never seen that, but Julia's reaction to is is bananas. How does that make her feel threatened? Can't she just ignore it, of course men are going to look, did the women think nobody would notice? To me this belittles any legitimate claim she might have, if she's this irrational about this event, then it clouds my view of other things she says. She also sounds confuse…

So, if you hula hoop in public you are asking to be ogled? Was she asking for it? Was she asking nice? Yeah, she was asking for it Did she ask you twice? - "Asking For It" Courtney Love and Eric Erlandson "We had just gotten off tour with Mudhoney, and I decided to stage-dive. I was wearing a dress and I didn't realize what I was engendering in the audience. It was a huge audience and they were kind of going ape-shit…

What does a semi-gangrape at a metal concert has to do with an innocent silly act in a SF office? Nobody forced anything on anybody... If you are so much hatred just move your desk to the other side of the building or work from home your just freakin' get a life before start any interaction with other human beings...

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#252

Post by dekz » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:26 AM UTC

pekk wrote: post #31

almightygod wrote: post #26

This whole incident is sad. It's incredibly sad for Julie, for everyone at GitHub, for the founders, and for the alleged "crazy" founder wife who was banned from a company she probably sacrificed a lot for

I'm surprised nobody sees sexism in the way that the wife has been stigmatized.

At least express your opinion with this statement instead of just leaving a questionable open ended statement.

Do I see any sexism against the wife of the co-founder from GitHub's statement? No

If you'd like to continue the discussion then go ahead and provide something of worth.

This comment is ironic I know, but these kind of posts derail the debate.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#253

Post by cpayne » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:27 AM UTC

greenyoda wrote: post #134

cpayne wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It means just that! Github have a very fine line to walk. They don't have traditional shareholders to make happy. At the end of the day, all they have is their brand to protect. Ask Microsoft how important their brand is after releasing Windows ME. Or Blackberry just after the iPhone came out. Clearly something has happened, but they have to not only find out what happened, but to also be transparent and show that th…

"At the end of the day, all they have is their brand to protect." They also need to protect their company from a potential lawsuit.

How is the damage of a lawsuit different to the damage of their brand? It's one and the same.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#254

Post by peterjancelis » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:28 AM UTC

vulf wrote: post #130

peterjancelis wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, I edited my post so I don't hurt your peculiar sensitivities. I wasn't outing anyone, the founder who shall not be named is the only married one as plenty of people pointed out from the start. Also, for context to the original comment, the founder we are discussing here used to be CEO but switched roles a while back.

PJ Hyett has been married for many years: https://twitter.com/pjhyett/status/89064336454201346

I stand corrected.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#255

Post by SolarNet » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:29 AM UTC

sockgrant wrote: post #243

SolarNet wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually of all of these the last one is the only one I think your counter is flat out wrong (all the others seem plausible enough). Why? Because gawking at other co-workers (regardless of genders) in a casual environment is not ok. In a casual work environment people often do light exercise, and they need to feel comfortable to do that without being turned into sex objects. I would hope the men in question have enou…

> In a casual work environment people often do light exercise Could you elaborate on this? In the work environments I've been in, people go to the gym or outside to work out. I've never been in a work environment where it's acceptable to do your exercising in the office space. What are you talking about -- yoga, bicep curls, jogging, jumping jacks? I've worked at extremely liberal companies but that kind of stuff doe…

> Could you elaborate on this?

I've seen yoga, weights, and those things you compress, basically stuff to get the blood flowing again. Hoola hooping is probably a bit more admittedly, but not that extreme. Especially since it sounds like it was happening outside.

> I don't think it's a person's right to hula hoop in an office and then be upset when they attract the attention of the rest of the office, regardless of sex on both sides. It's an unusual thing to do, so it will draw eyes.

You are missing the point. Horvath wasn't the one hoola hooping. She was a bystander, and the gawking was making her feel uncomfortable because it implies a work environment where it is ok to sexually objectify your co-workers (or that seems to be how she took it). But this is an(other) HR failure.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#256

Post by dobbsbob » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:29 AM UTC

vpeters25 wrote: post #175

greenyoda wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"At the end of the day, all they have is their brand to protect." They also need to protect their company from a potential lawsuit.

Bingo!, the lawsuit is coming regardless, Horvath made sure to leave enough of a paper trail for it. I think this whole situation looks like a misunderstanding snowballing into a tsunami. Founder's wife takes her for drinks, gets drunk, talks of her ass and says inappropriate stuff. I would just chalk it to drunkenness and forget the whole episode. It would've ended right there.

Guaranteed lawyers have already contacted her after hearing about this assuring her she has a big settlement waiting, which she probably does. Github will just want to make this go away and prevent her from shit talking the brand anymore and money is the answer

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#257

Post by Karn » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:30 AM UTC

SolarNet wrote: post #232

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #208

Of course we may never know for sure exactly what was said (unless everything was secretly recorded somehow... NSA - data, please), but my initial reaction is that this story sounds a bit... exaggerated. Were things said that shouldn't have been said? Probably so. But here's the way I read it from TC: Let's look at what Horvath claims: > character started being discussed in inappropriate places like on pull requests…

Actually of all of these the last one is the only one I think your counter is flat out wrong (all the others seem plausible enough). Why? Because gawking at other co-workers (regardless of genders) in a casual environment is not ok. In a casual work environment people often do light exercise, and they need to feel comfortable to do that without being turned into sex objects. I would hope the men in question have enou…

Hula hooping in a non-private space is equivalent to screaming "LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!" If people are hula hooping, regardless of whether they are male or female, people are going to look. If the women were working on a laptop, or having a quiet conversation, and THEN men were gawping, that would be unacceptable. Want to hula hoop without being looked at? Do it in a private space.

> You are basically using the same logic as countries that require burqas in public.

Of course, because saying that "if you do attention-attracting activities in public, people are going to look, deal with it" is the same as saying "women must cover themselves head to toe in public."

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#258

Post by gregmolnar » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:30 AM UTC

leccine wrote: post #13

Well Julie's story stinks. Let me just quote the last thigs she wrote and work backwards from that. "Two women, one of whom I work with and adore, and a friend of hers were hula hooping to some music. I didn’t have a problem with this. What I did have a problem with is the line of men sitting on one bench facing the hoopers and gawking at them. It looked like something out of a strip club. When I brought this up to m…

So if I would watch two woman while they play table tennis it would be inappropriate? This is silly :). I don't see any difference between hula hooping and playing table tennis or darts. If someone wants to see how sexy is that they can do it with both.

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#259

Post by sequoia » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:32 AM UTC

rodgerd wrote: post #60

It's good to see a straight-up apology, not a mealy-mouthed "I'm sorry if our engineer's sexual harrassment offended you" type response. Of course, it would have been better if Julie had felt like she could have taken this up while she still worked there and got something done at the time.

"It’s certain that there were things we could have done differently." heh... this doesn't read like a "straight-up apology" to me. It doesn't acknowledge even a whit of wrongdoing. Note also that Wanstrath says he "would like to personally apologize to Julie," [emphasis added], not that Github is apologizing or that he's apologizing on Github's behalf.

I'm not saying "they should apologize and I know it" because I don't know it, I know practically nothing of the situation, but this is no "straight up apology."

Re: Update on Julie Horvath's Departure

#260

Post by PakG1 » Mon, Mar 17, 2014, 5:32 AM UTC

The actions that Github has taken lends credibility to what Horvath has said. Of course, we'll not know the whole truth until sometime in the future, if ever.

Even if this episode were only hypothetical, this episode reminds me that many people have poor decision-making abilities, even if they are super intelligent. A co-founder of a company like Github would and should have a very good brain and very good decision-making prowess. And yet, here we see instances of him possibly:

1. Not being able to identify boundaries between his personal life and his work life, and allowing factors from his personal life to influence his work life, possibly very negatively (magnified by his position at the company).

2. Not being able to communicate with people and ascertain the truth of the matter. Someone had to lie to cause him to accuse Horvath of lying: either his wife lied or Horvath lied, and he didn't appear to do a good job of getting the truth and resolving the situation.

3. Having perhaps made a poor marriage decision. I would not be surprised if everyone downvotes me for this speculation, and am sorry if this ruffles features. But if this episode is true, there are very few ways that this co-founder's marriage comes out looking good. Either he's absolutely insensitive to the needs of his company or he's completely whipped by a woman who cares more about herself than him. If it's a poor marriage decision, he wouldn't be the first person in history, people from all walks of life seem to make poor marriage decisions all the time.

In the end, I am reminded again that people are messy, and no matter how intelligent they appear to be, they can still have the potential to act stupidly.