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Are Malls Over?

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Re: Are Malls Over?

#171

Post by MrFoof »

tsunamifury wrote: post #20

Forcing shopping activity and gathering into indoor brutalist buildings is dying, shopping centers are not. Look at union sq, 4th st, walnut creek, and many others in the sf bay. All are stronger than ever by offering very high end retail mixed with high quality independent offerings and unique chef-driven eateries. What people have abandoned is indoor, stale, sunlight less, copycat malls with the same awful pizza an…

Boston has it nailed, though Boston also used to have one of the most prestigious high streets on the planet.

Although they've gotten increasingly commercially commoditized, Quincy Market/Faneuil Hall, Newbury Street and the Prudential Center are mostly done right. The Prudential Center is the most "gray box" of them all, but the skylight that cuts through nearly the entire structure opens it up quite a bit.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#172

Post by greghinch »

EpicEng wrote: post #148
greghinch wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Malls aren't dying. Some malls are, but that has nothing to do with the mall paradigm and has more to do with the local population. A mall can't get up and move. It's like a tree. It is where it is and it either thrives or dies. I would argue this is exactly why malls are dying, that they can't keep up with more and more rapidly evolving socio-economic trends and shifting demographics across geographies. Another by…

Ehhh... it really depends on where the mall is located. Back home (podunk Rockford IL) malls are indeed dying. They are dilapidated and/or ghost towns. Ten years ago this was not the case. Where I currently live (La Jolla CA) the opposite is true. Of course, the malls are filled with stores like Saks, Nordstrom, a Tesla show floor, etc. These places are packed. I know I'm not going to buy a $1200+ jacket online any t…

Right, malls are dying in certain areas and flourishing in others. As demographic shifts continue to happen across geographies (and those shifts only seem to be increasing), the very concept of a stationary location of offline commerce ceases to be flexible enough. I don't discount the fact that many or all people would want to try on a $1200 jacket before buying it; simply that the retail model that will thrive in the coming decades involves much greater mobility than a static large shopping center can provide.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#173

Post by gknoy »

sizzle wrote: post #156
ams6110 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine what "experience" we all thought we were enjoying in these grayboxes for so many years. The indoor shopping mall was, initially, a huge convenience. You could drive to one place, park once (usually for free), and visit a variety of shops in climate-controlled comfort (nice in rainy/winter seasons or hot summers). Most people found this preferable to driving all over town or even to a central downtown…

I thought the experience of malls were essentially like that of casinos, in that they were designed so you would lose track of time and buy/gamble more?

The allure was that you knew you could look at one store, and then another, without having to drive across town.

Now that we order online, comparison shop online, etc, why would I want to walk through Sears vs JC Penney? (for example) The internet ate the convenience aspect of the malls, and left only the social aspect or the Shopping Experience itself.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#174

Post by hawkharris »

I enjoy two things about going to my local mall...things that I can't get from online retailers: instant gratification and ceremony.

1. Instant gratification....If I'm excited about a new product, I can get up immediately and travel to the store, find and pick up the item. Sure, this entails an effort of its own, but at least I'm taking action instead of waiting for a package to come.

2. Ceremony: You may not appreciate this unless you're a videogame buff, too, but there was nothing like waiting in line for GTA5. It was truly ceremonial... High school students, construction workers, businessmen, etc., all stood with me because we were so excited to tear off the packaging of that game. The store even hosted a party featuring competitions and prizes.

Will malls survive? I don't know....the prices, selection and convenience of Amazon are hard to beat. But my advice is to capitalize on the instant gratification and the ceremonial aspects of shopping in-person. Online retailers haven't yet found a way to duplicate this IMHO.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#175

Post by EEGuy »

bhauer wrote: post #33

This again? I remember reading malls were over 15 years ago and yet all of the malls in my corner of Los Angeles are still open and thriving. All have been renovated at least once since the first batch of "malls are over" articles many years back. Some have converted a bit of their indoor space to outdoor (such as Del Amo in Torrance, which was one of the largest in the United States). Some have converted from outdoo…

The old approach: "Stores! Stores! Stores!"

A new approach: Anchor stores, entertainment, utility, accessiblity, asthetics, a spectrum of economic appeal, grocery stores. Owners can be demanding of rents to some extent, but when they drive out (or never had) a movie theatre or grocery store, they are losing the "single destination for lots of what you need" and "nice place to go" value.

Of some LA malls, I think the Fallbrook Center [1] has rebuilt itself well, regarding:

* Entertainmnet-wise, AMC Theatres rebuilt the old shoebox-y 7-screen multiplex with way fewer seats. Moreso, every movie theatre seat is a wide-width, electrically-powered recliner including footrests! What used to be 20 rows of seats is now 7 or 8 for one screen, so prices are a bit higher. One can /reserve a seat/ via Fandango over the Internet (fee refunded by AMC) so one doesn't have to come early and wait in line for "a good seat"; they're all good and one can book them in advance. The theatre feels much more full, and seems more popular.

* By "spectrum of economic appeal", specifically, Fallbrook has /three/ full grocery stores (a "Ralphs" (Kroger) supermarket, "Sprouts Farmers Market" luxury grocery, and a "Trader Joes", plus two more department stores that include grocery sections: A Target and a Walmart.

* Utility-wise, it's got a Home Depot, a 24-Hour-Fitness gym, a Chuck-E-Cheese (hat tip to Nolan Bushnell)

* Accessability-wise, there are street lights at mid-block entrances for auto traffic, and bike lanes on the streets for bicycle traffic, and bike racks (though I'd like to see more of those).

* For asthetics, there are planters and small stand-alone buildings facing the street (urban-style). This broke the ugly old impression the prior desert-of-asphalt a hot summer's day brought.

* Instead of a food court, the small buildings facing the street are a mix of stand-alone and multi-tenant places to eat, both sit-down (indoor) and walk-up bar with outdoor seating. Market diversity here too: Starbucks, Jamba Juice, IHOP, a lobster specialty franchise, and a non-franchised grill (Tikka grill) and non-franchised Vietnamese restaurant.

They're doing fine, there is such a diversity of things to do as well as things to get there.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallbrook_Center

Edit: grammar, clarity

Re: Are Malls Over?

#176

Post by sliverstorm »

aestra wrote: post #160
sliverstorm wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Among other things, - A sanctioned place to hang out with friends outside of school - A predecessor to online shopping. If you buy it online today, and you can't get it from Target/Walmart/Etc, chances are you would have gone to a mall back then. - Lots and lots of different clothes stores. The HN crowd probably doesn't care for this much, but other people liked that part a lot! - Bustling and full of people. This ha…

>and you can't get it from Target/Walmart/Etc, When malls were in their heyday when I was growing up, there was no Target or Walmart. At least not anywhere close to where I lived. >A sanctioned place to hang out with friends outside of school Malls now are starting to outright not let kids in unless they are accompanied by an adult. I am dead serious, I got carded entering a mall in 2008 and was told the policy is no…

Yeah, I couldn't remember exactly what was around, when. But I meant warehouse stores and the like. Home Depot, perhaps? Or in my case, Orchard Supply. Which really shows you the Valley's origins.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#177

Post by asharpe »

greghinch wrote: post #144
maratd wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you hit the nail on the head and this is really region specific. There was a mall next to me when I was growing up and it was dingy, just poorly maintained. Then the area became hot, Whole Foods moved in. Then Target. Then a bevy of smaller upscale retailers. Now that dingy mall is unrecognizable and filled to the brim. Not a single vacancy. Not a single open parking spot either. Malls aren't dying. Some mall…

> Malls aren't dying. Some malls are, but that has nothing to do with the mall paradigm and has more to do with the local population. A mall can't get up and move. It's like a tree. It is where it is and it either thrives or dies. I would argue this is exactly why malls are dying, that they can't keep up with more and more rapidly evolving socio-economic trends and shifting demographics across geographies. Another by…

Having worked for a major mall owner many years ago, this is the primary reason why malls 'fail' and was completely omitted by the article. Shifting demographics affect Malls in both ways: the design and build of a Mall serving a low socio-economic area is significantly different from 'A-Class' Malls as they are now known.

Where I worked, they had taken a multi year (decade actually) play to purchase two older malls in socio-economic areas that were trending down. They then acquired the land only a short distance (relatively) in a burgeoning new upmarket area and was able to build a new Class A mall (without objections from the other malls ... that they already owned). They then migrated the higher end stores to the new mall and began to close one of the old malls (and were actually able to sell them off!!!). This is evolution, not the death of Malls.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#178

Post by TylerE »

rch wrote: post #82
flexie wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Europe, malls are still constructed in many places and they have the advantage of being built a few decades after many of the US malls. Where I live summers are a bit too warm and winters a bit too cold to make outdoor shopping joyful. Also, streets are noisy and full of aggressive drivers and the sidewalks are full of holes and broken tiles. So in the last few years this 1.5M population city has seen the construc…

>One advantage from most of the US malls...is that cars are parked under the malls, not around them... Thanks for bringing this up. Dealing with parking is a much more complex problem than was assumed for the last 50 years or so. Better modeling should improve the situation going forward though, and could help effectively redevelop some of these megamall wastelands too.

I imagine that big part of that is the large percentage of the US population that leaves on or near a coast. Major underground excavation isn't really possible when ground level is only 10m or so above sea level/the water table.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#179

Post by twerquie »

hawkharris wrote: post #174

I enjoy two things about going to my local mall...things that I can't get from online retailers: instant gratification and ceremony. 1. Instant gratification....If I'm excited about a new product, I can get up immediately and travel to the store, find and pick up the item. Sure, this entails an effort of its own, but at least I'm taking action instead of waiting for a package to come. 2. Ceremony: You may not appreci…

What you describe as "ceremony" I take to mean socialization, that you are shopping with the public in a market atmosphere and I think that's something absolutely intrinsic in all human cultures and isn't going anywhere. The mall is the perfect style of market for shopping for clothes, media, fast food, housewares.

Re: Are Malls Over?

#180

Post by theoh »

jimmaswell wrote: post #162
theoh wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brutalism is a style, not a term of abuse. It does often refer to high modernist 1960s and 1970s buildings which are expensive to operate, having been constructed before environmental friendliness was on the agenda. Some people don't like the rectilinear boxes and raw concrete, but that's not why the term brutalism is applied to a particular subset of the buildings of that period: it was the popular name of an aesthe…

The way I'd heard it in school was that it was a style made to purposely be as unlikably soulless as possible as some kind of statement. That's apparently not true?

Not really. If you can get past the AR paywall (which is a bit erratic) you can read one of the original statements of the movement here: http://www.architectural-review.com/8603840.article Slightly contentious recent discussion of the broader style here: http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/feb/13/jonathan...
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