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Don't Ban “Bossy”

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Re: Don't Ban “Bossy”

#71
post #22
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is at least a theoretical logic to banning words like this: if being called bossy is causing girls to lose leadership skills then maybe stopping this artificially (even if people still think it without saying it) could lead to less girls being affected, and therefore in the next generation the stigma has disappeared. Obviously it's not that simple, and I have no idea to what extent, if any, this actually works,…

"if being called bossy is causing girls to lose leadership skills" ... then they aren't leaders anyway.

This is exactly the problem: Leadership roles going to those who fight hardest, not those who motivate and inspire.

Re: Don't Ban “Bossy”

#72

I understand that this is a touchy subject, especially on HN, but come on: "Avoid editing what you want to say in your head, and try not to worry about being wrong." This is straight from their Leadership Tips for Girls pdf. They are encouraging girls to just say whatever comes to mind. What's next - calling everyone who disagrees "sexist"?

Unless what you want to say is "bossy"! That must be edited, we learn.

Re: Don't Ban “Bossy”

#74

While feminists were busy telling the world about the dire need to ban the word “bossy,” the Iraqi parliament was considering the implementation of a new law that would legalize rape, prohibit women leaving home without the permission of their husband, and legalize marriage for 9-year-olds. “If passed, the law will apply to Iraq’s Shia Muslims, the majority of the population. Provisions include prohibiting Muslim men…

I agree with the article, but "There are Starving Kids in Africa" is a stock bad argument

You missed the point of the article with your pointless nitpicking, so here it is, try again...

That’s because second wave feminism is not about protecting women’s rights, it’s about stirring up a contrived gender war and impugning western culture, the middle class and the family unit as the source of all sexism and oppression, thereby making women more dependent on the government and hiding the true source of all oppression – the state.

Re: Don't Ban “Bossy”

#75

That's funny, I actually heard the word used when I was a military cadet in high school. It was used to teach the difference between being a a leader, or just, well bossy. Don't be a boss, don't act bossy, and so on. Bossy people, we were taught, boss people around by using their rank. No one wants to follow them, they just have to. That's the worst kind of leader, we were taught. don't be bossy was good feedback. A…

This campaign isn't about grown women in leadership, it's about kids. No one expects little boys or girls to be very good at leadership, but boys are praised when they try while girls are dismissed. So the boys are more likely to keep trying and improving, while the girls eventually give up.

Re: Don't Ban “Bossy”

#76
post #36

"Ban Bossy" Spokesperson: Beyoncé Beyoncé Lyrics: Bow down bitches, bow bow down bitches Bow down bitches, bow bow down bitches H-town vicious, h-h-town vicious I’m so crown, bow bow down bitches Beyoncé's husband Jay-Z Lyrics Excerpt: My nigga, please - you ain't signing no checks like these My nigga, please - you pushing no wheels like these My nigga, please - you ain't holding no tecks like these My nigga, please…

Firstly, I fail to see how the lyrics from a Jay-Z song from 2002 are anything other than completely irrelevant to the Ban Bossy campaign. But if you're going to bring it up, we might as well do it right. 1) Pharrell says those lines not Jay-Z. This is the same person who wrote/sings/produced the Academy-Award nominated "Happy" song from Despicable Me. 2) The context of lyrics within a song, the intended meaning of t…

Why'd you censor the lyrics?

"I fail to see how the lyrics from a Jay-Z song from 2002 are anything other than completely irrelevant to the Ban Bossy campaign."

We're talking about banning words. If I had to guess, I'd bet more people would support banning "nigga" than they would "bossy". Personally, I don't think any words should be "banned" because it's simply not possible. Society may evolve to not use a word, or shun those that do use a word - but a campaign to "ban" a word does an injustice to the literal meaning of the word "ban" because it's just not realistic, or possible.

Re: Don't Ban “Bossy”

#77

That's funny, I actually heard the word used when I was a military cadet in high school. It was used to teach the difference between being a a leader, or just, well bossy. Don't be a boss, don't act bossy, and so on. Bossy people, we were taught, boss people around by using their rank. No one wants to follow them, they just have to. That's the worst kind of leader, we were taught. don't be bossy was good feedback. A…

Why am I not surprised you only heard it applied to men .. in the military. EDIT: This entire thing is about young girls, not the military

Huh? Perhaps you should read what I wrote again, it appears you've completely missed my point. And yes, I read the article, and went to the website, I know what it's about if that's your point.

Here's my point: bossy is not a sexist term, for example it's used to describe poor leaders in environments like the military, where leadership is NOT just men. Acting bossy is bad. Subordinates hate it, and you can't lead by rank alone. It's a damn good lesson.

Therefore, advocating for its banning (the movement is called Ban Bossy after all) is both unwarranted, and entirely unhelpful: because it's a clear unambiguous word that young leaders get" quickly to describe adverse behavior in a leader and it's the proper English use of the word Boss to describe someone acting in a manner like a boss. What word would you use to describe this adverse behavior?

And the "Ban Bossy" movements supposition that it's sexist that it's used to describe "girls" is unsubstantiated. It's a good word to describe behavior, if someone's calling you bossy you need to do some soul searching if you want to be a leader. Don't be a boss, be a leader.

If you're acting bossy, stop and lead instead.

Re: Don't Ban “Bossy”

#78
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot "creepy stalker", you closed-minded male chauvinist ape.

That's female chauvinist ape, shitlord!

Well played, Tohhou, well played.

Now if you'll please excuse me, I've just stepped in some of my own doggy doo, and I need scrape off my shoe.

Re: Don't Ban “Bossy”

#79
post #30

I love the delicious lack of self-awareness with which these things are delivered. Like people who pay $50,000/year for college to study a subject of no practical use telling me to "check your privilege".

This is a kind of long response. But I hope maybe you'll read through it. Just saying "check your privilege" is probably not the best starting point for the conversation, so I'll try to do a better job of explaining. I don't know if you are misunderstanding what is meant by "privilege" or not, but the privilege being talked about when someone says "check your privilege" in my experience are the privileges that come from being part of the, for lack of a better term, more socially accepted or socially powerful group. Things like white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege, you get the idea.

So regardless of your level of income or education, you can be, and probably are, still privileged in the way society sees and treats you.

For example, as a man, I pretty much never have to worry about being told I got a promotion because I was having sex with the boss, or that I'm only being angry or "emotional" about something because it's my "time of the month". Things that women have to deal with all the time.

Another example would be that I'm never worried wanting to have children is going to be seen as bad for business, and result in me being denied promotions or other advancement because of it.(Not to mention I'm statistically going to be getting paid more than women for doing equal work.)

Hopefully you can see how these are the type of privileges men, or another group of people in a similar situation, may never notice unless it is pointed out to them. Or they "check their privilege".

In relation to Ban Bossy, an important example seems to be that I've been conditioned my entire life to aspire to be a leader: team captain, salesman of the year, best on the basketball court, you get the idea. And not once was I ever, or will I ever, be discouraged from asserting my leadership skills as essentially "not knowing my place" because I'm a man, which can be the outcome when we tell girls and young women to not be bossy or other similar things.

Maybe a good exercise for you, and for all of us, is to listen to what people are saying when they describe the privileges we have, or to ask them to explain better because we would like to understand. Depending on our situation, maybe we'll gain a better understanding of our heterosexual privilege and being able to love who we want without having to worry that their gender will result in violence against us or them. Or maybe we'll learn about our religious privilege, and that we are able to practice a religion without inciting fear, being called names, profiled, assaulted, or killed because of the head covering we wear or for being "different".

Re: Don't Ban “Bossy”

#80
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, I fail to see how the lyrics from a Jay-Z song from 2002 are anything other than completely irrelevant to the Ban Bossy campaign. But if you're going to bring it up, we might as well do it right. 1) Pharrell says those lines not Jay-Z. This is the same person who wrote/sings/produced the Academy-Award nominated "Happy" song from Despicable Me. 2) The context of lyrics within a song, the intended meaning of t…

Why'd you censor the lyrics? "I fail to see how the lyrics from a Jay-Z song from 2002 are anything other than completely irrelevant to the Ban Bossy campaign." We're talking about banning words. If I had to guess, I'd bet more people would support banning "nigga" than they would "bossy". Personally, I don't think any words should be "banned" because it's simply not possible. Society may evolve to not use a word, or…

To your question: I censor myself on HN because I don't believe Hacker News, which is often used by children and is a place that seems to wish to be more welcoming to women and racial minorities, is the right place to have an environment where swearing or using racially inflammatory language is okay.

Especially when readers don't know my relationship to the subject matter, or my relationship to the individual I'm addressing.

To your point about relevance, I'm going to point out to you that zero people are actually advocating banning a word. They're saying "hey let's stop calling girls who express leadership skills "bossy" because that has negative consequences". To which I think the average person would probably be open to. They are advocating not using a word in the wrong context. Call kids bossy when they're being brats, sure, but when someone, particularly girls are being leaders and doing the same things that boys are complimented for, don't call them bossy.

#WhenSomeonesBeingALeaderDontCallThemBossy is a pretty long hashtag and a terrible way to quickly market your campaign. #banbossy is memorable, gets to the point, and can encourage a conversation.

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