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Checking out of 'Hotel America'

news.bbc.co.uk

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Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#31

Post by jwhitlark »

georgekv wrote: post #9
abstractbill wrote: post #7

This sums up pretty much exactly how I feel about America having lived here for 6 years. I both love it and hate it here. This bit was particularly good: A nation which will one day mass produce a cure for type one diabetes, could not, would not, save little Kara Neumann from the bovine idiocy of her religious parents.

"A society that gets rid of all its troublemakers goes downhill." - Robert Heinlein

I suspect that much of America's advantages come from not just having choice, but the understanding that just because people will frequently make bad ones, doesn't mean it's a win to get rid of the ability to choose. Painful to lose people in stupid ways, but some of those stupid choices turn out to not be so stupid, in the end.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#33

Post by donw »

abstractbill wrote: post #24
kragen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? People whose religion is sincere will inevitably come into conflict with religious and secular authorities from time to time. Over several centuries, most of them left Europe and went to the US, where there were no religious authorities, and the secular authorities were much more hands-off. It's not particularly surprising that their desce…

I sometimes joke that we (the British) sent all our criminals to Australia and all our puritans to America, and of course there's some amount of historical truth to this. So if the Americans remain fervently religious, why isn't Australia really a nation of criminals today?

Beer.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#34

Post by noss »

abstractbill wrote: post #18
ShabbyDoo wrote: post #13

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? Is it that state-run religions aren't as market-savvy as the "free-market" churches in the US? Are Europeans better educated? I presume the author probably is also referring to an embrace of creationism as well. What is it that went right in Europe (or just didn't go awry)?

I would love to know the real answer to this. I suspect it has something to do with how easy it is to form a church here and get it tax-exempt status (I have no experience in this area of course, but from what I've heard it's much easier in the US than it is in Europe).

ShabbyDoo is definitely onto something with his guess that European government-connected churches market themselves less.

From what I understand you will be quite left-out of society in most of US if you don't go to church. Here in Sweden, as a member of church, you can have funerals, marriages and baptising at church, but the church will never really bother you to come to the Sunday service.

The Swedish church was slightly decoupled from the government a number of years ago, but fees from members are still collected by the tax office, something like half a percent at most, it varies by region (diocese?).

Also, members of the Swedish church get to participate in elections for the primary positions. See http://www.svenskakyrkan.se/default.aspx?di=272326 I don't know if that happens for US churches.

Mormons and other US free-churches do come here and have head quarters. I find that they pray on the poor and unfortunate ones by knocking doors and stopping people on the streets to offer their solutions. They're very much considered fringe groups though, since the Swedish church is so much moderate and yet provide ceremonies that are in demand even in the world's most secularized country.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#35

Post by geebee »

I often enjoy these articles, but they never really resonate with me. I see almost nothing of my day to day life in these narratives.

Would this article describe San Francisco? New York? Seattle? Portland? Austin? New Orleans? Memphis?

I assure you that people buying a house in SF aren't surprised to find grout in the tiles or drafty windows. We're actually kind of hoping to find those things, because this means we're not paying for someone to stage and flip (even in this economy).

I think international borders are very over rated where it comes to culture shock. Not saying there's no difference, of course, I just suspect there's the opportunity for every bit as much culture shock within the US than between the US, Canada, or Australia, maybe more... try moving from central Manhattan to central London, then move from Manhattan to the outskirts of Toledo. Hell, you don't have to go that far, just go to the New York exurbs.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#36

Post by Estragon »

abstractbill wrote: post #7

This sums up pretty much exactly how I feel about America having lived here for 6 years. I both love it and hate it here. This bit was particularly good: A nation which will one day mass produce a cure for type one diabetes, could not, would not, save little Kara Neumann from the bovine idiocy of her religious parents.

A nation which will one day mass produce a cure for type one diabetes

My money's on the Chinese for that, actually.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#37

Post by asdflkj »

In Europe, lower classes* are obsessed with upper classes, and vice versa. In America, neither cares about the other. The upper classes are free to live in their own world (much as the great artists of the Renaissance), while the lower classes, left to their own devices, become grotesque. America is really two separate nations.

Am I delusional? This seems so clear to me, and yet I haven't heard it anywhere.

*I'm not talking about "class", exactly. This is not about social standing or money, but the ability to influence the world, and not necessarily in a highly visible way.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#38

Post by nvn1 »

abstractbill wrote: post #24
kragen wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? People whose religion is sincere will inevitably come into conflict with religious and secular authorities from time to time. Over several centuries, most of them left Europe and went to the US, where there were no religious authorities, and the secular authorities were much more hands-off. It's not particularly surprising that their desce…

I sometimes joke that we (the British) sent all our criminals to Australia and all our puritans to America, and of course there's some amount of historical truth to this. So if the Americans remain fervently religious, why isn't Australia really a nation of criminals today?

Perhaps the causes or whatever drives people to be religious or criminal are not the same? Perhaps removing criminals from British society was enough to 'reform' a lot of them.The puritans chose to go to the US, I believe.

If we had sent all the criminals to the US and all the puritans to Australia then perhaps the results would have been switched.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#39

Post by dmm »

kragen wrote: post #19
ShabbyDoo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that that statement was not meant to include murderers.

Heinlein was a big enthusiast of violence.

What does that mean? His novels certainly contained violence but I don't recall any of them expressing enthusiasm for it. And a man is not his writings. Scifi authors often explored worlds with different values and conditions. For example many of his novels contemplate polygamy and alternative marriage/family structures but I have never heard anything to suggest that he himself practiced anything like that.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#40

Post by dmm »

asdflkj wrote: post #37

In Europe, lower classes* are obsessed with upper classes, and vice versa. In America, neither cares about the other. The upper classes are free to live in their own world (much as the great artists of the Renaissance), while the lower classes, left to their own devices, become grotesque. America is really two separate nations. Am I delusional? This seems so clear to me, and yet I haven't heard it anywhere. *I'm not…

The upper-classes are pretty grotesque as well.
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