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Checking out of 'Hotel America'

news.bbc.co.uk

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Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#21

Post by kragen »

ShabbyDoo wrote: post #13

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? Is it that state-run religions aren't as market-savvy as the "free-market" churches in the US? Are Europeans better educated? I presume the author probably is also referring to an embrace of creationism as well. What is it that went right in Europe (or just didn't go awry)?

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer?

People whose religion is sincere will inevitably come into conflict with religious and secular authorities from time to time. Over several centuries, most of them left Europe and went to the US, where there were no religious authorities, and the secular authorities were much more hands-off. It's not particularly surprising that their descendants still take religion seriously.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#22

Post by euroclydon »

ShabbyDoo wrote: post #13

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? Is it that state-run religions aren't as market-savvy as the "free-market" churches in the US? Are Europeans better educated? I presume the author probably is also referring to an embrace of creationism as well. What is it that went right in Europe (or just didn't go awry)?

Just a guess, but since we've always disallowed a state endorsed church, we have never been subject to a totally perverted church which is as powerful as the government or inseparable from the government. In fact, many churches here paint themselves as oppressed by government. Churches simply don't have long powerful tentacles here, like they had through much of European history.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#23

Post by ShabbyDoo »

abstractbill wrote: post #18
ShabbyDoo wrote: post #13

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? Is it that state-run religions aren't as market-savvy as the "free-market" churches in the US? Are Europeans better educated? I presume the author probably is also referring to an embrace of creationism as well. What is it that went right in Europe (or just didn't go awry)?

I would love to know the real answer to this. I suspect it has something to do with how easy it is to form a church here and get it tax-exempt status (I have no experience in this area of course, but from what I've heard it's much easier in the US than it is in Europe).

The existence of store-front churches supports your assertion.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#24

Post by abstractbill »

kragen wrote: post #21
ShabbyDoo wrote: post #13

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? Is it that state-run religions aren't as market-savvy as the "free-market" churches in the US? Are Europeans better educated? I presume the author probably is also referring to an embrace of creationism as well. What is it that went right in Europe (or just didn't go awry)?

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? People whose religion is sincere will inevitably come into conflict with religious and secular authorities from time to time. Over several centuries, most of them left Europe and went to the US, where there were no religious authorities, and the secular authorities were much more hands-off. It's not particularly surprising that their desce…

I sometimes joke that we (the British) sent all our criminals to Australia and all our puritans to America, and of course there's some amount of historical truth to this. So if the Americans remain fervently religious, why isn't Australia really a nation of criminals today?

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#25

Post by philwelch »

ShabbyDoo wrote: post #13

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? Is it that state-run religions aren't as market-savvy as the "free-market" churches in the US? Are Europeans better educated? I presume the author probably is also referring to an embrace of creationism as well. What is it that went right in Europe (or just didn't go awry)?

The US is overall a more religious country. Part of it is historical--Europe shipped all their religious fanatics over here, so they were left with the boring state-sponsored churches like the Catholics and Anglicans. America also has a long history of cyclical religious revivals.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#26

Post by Dauntless »

ShabbyDoo wrote: post #13

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? Is it that state-run religions aren't as market-savvy as the "free-market" churches in the US? Are Europeans better educated? I presume the author probably is also referring to an embrace of creationism as well. What is it that went right in Europe (or just didn't go awry)?

When I've been to USA I was surprised how much religion is used as a business (not that they say that themselves), "free market" churches are much more radical and aggressive in nature and marketing. Also, "churches" in Europe are hardly that active and much more tolerant and unintrusive.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#27

Post by domodomo »

philwelch wrote: post #10
domodomo wrote: post #8

This article was strong because it balanced critique with commendation. It's an interesting observation that America's "bigness" in many things is simultaneously it's largest advantage and disadvantage. I've often felt that Americans tend to have a kind of naive optimism compared to folks from other countries. In fact, while living abroad I've felt judged by Western Europeans in particular for that quality in myself…

I suppose Americans do have a naive optimism--I've always perceived British culture in general to be cynical and negative, but that may simply be in comparison to my own optimistic culture. I attribute a lot of that to history. The fall of Europe's empires in the 20th century was the failure of their grand national experiments, and on top of it, much of the world faced immense death and destruction during the wars of…

Good point. I think a lot of a culture's attitude is based on cultural memory, which comes from lessons learned (or not) from history.

Americans abroad are often elbowed about how young their country is (ugh, I lived in Beijing and they always trot out 4000 years of Chinese civilization. Nevermind the CCP is only 80 years old), but what this means is relatively less cultural baggage. Americans have less cultural memory to look backwards at and reference (and a lot we see back there like destruction of Native Americans, black slavery, etc is painful to examine), so as a result Americans have no choice but to look forwards.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#28

Post by krschultz »

georgekv wrote: post #9
abstractbill wrote: post #7

This sums up pretty much exactly how I feel about America having lived here for 6 years. I both love it and hate it here. This bit was particularly good: A nation which will one day mass produce a cure for type one diabetes, could not, would not, save little Kara Neumann from the bovine idiocy of her religious parents.

"A society that gets rid of all its troublemakers goes downhill." - Robert Heinlein

Parents negligently killing their children is great for society?

There are plenty of things to quote in the world, why you would chose that one in this place is beyond comprehension by a sane individual.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#29

Post by philwelch »

domodomo wrote: post #27
philwelch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose Americans do have a naive optimism--I've always perceived British culture in general to be cynical and negative, but that may simply be in comparison to my own optimistic culture. I attribute a lot of that to history. The fall of Europe's empires in the 20th century was the failure of their grand national experiments, and on top of it, much of the world faced immense death and destruction during the wars of…

Good point. I think a lot of a culture's attitude is based on cultural memory, which comes from lessons learned (or not) from history. Americans abroad are often elbowed about how young their country is (ugh, I lived in Beijing and they always trot out 4000 years of Chinese civilization. Nevermind the CCP is only 80 years old), but what this means is relatively less cultural baggage. Americans have less cultural memo…

We also don't have all that old stuff. Over in Europe they still have castles and palaces from medieval times. Buildings that are centuries old. With rare exceptions, Americans knock down old buildings and build new ones.

Re: Checking out of 'Hotel America'

#30

Post by Luff »

ShabbyDoo wrote: post #13

Why is it that so few Europeans believe that diabetes can be cured via prayer? Is it that state-run religions aren't as market-savvy as the "free-market" churches in the US? Are Europeans better educated? I presume the author probably is also referring to an embrace of creationism as well. What is it that went right in Europe (or just didn't go awry)?

Just speculation without any data to back it up: * A selling point of America in the beginning was freedom of religion. * A lot of people were killed off in WW2 because of their religion, and I wouldn't be surprised if many lost their faith because of the deeds committed under these times. (made it hard to believe in a benevolent God with a plan) * A big catchphrase of the socialist movement was "Religion is the opiate of the people".
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