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Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year

collectorsweekly.com

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Re: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year

#131
post #105

The article quotes the 30,000 per year number, but it only really talks about fatalities or injuries to pedestrians by cars. The 30,000 number includes fatalities or injuries to people in cars as well. So a lot of relevant data is being left out. Wikipedia has a link to NHTSA figures that give more detail. The link is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_in... From the 2010 data: * 32,885 t…

There seems to be some serious low-hanging fruit here with regard to improving these numbers. Imagine if you took the billions currently spent by the TSA and applied it to road safety? Given what the rest of world does with airport security, it's possible to maintain airport security while at the same time freeing up massive resources which could be channeled into education (seriously, no seatbelts in 2014? ), polici…

most Americans don't fly

I'm not sure that's actually true. According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, there were 646 million enplaned passengers in 2013. ("Enplaned passengers" means passengers boarding originating flights, i.e., either nonstops to the destination or the first leg of an itinerary with at least one connection.) That's more than twice the population of the US, and about 2.7 times the population of the US that's over 18. Even allowing for the fact that many business travelers take many trips per year, there are still a lot of people who only take one or two airline trips per year, for vacations or special events, so it's hard for me to see how the percentage of Americans who don't fly can amount to "most"; I'd be surprised if it was half.

BTS link: http://www.transtats.bts.gov/

if you started creating or enforcing speed restrictions or drunk driving there'd be endless Libertarian arguments about the perils of big government, and the "freedom" of motor cyclists to not wear a helmet if they so choose

I think you're seriously underestimating the costs of enforcing driving regulations to the extent that you would need to to improve the numbers significantly by that means; I suspect that a more realistic estimate of those costs is what would lead most people (including me) to oppose such regulations. Whatever one's opinion about airport security, the amount spent on it is still a small fraction of government budgets and an even smaller fraction of GDP; and even for business travelers that take many trips per year, the overall cost in time of security screening is not that much compared to the time spent on the flight itself, particularly since most business travelers are easier to screen since they're familiar with the process and so get through it more quickly than people who only fly occasionally. (Note that I'm not arguing here that what is spent is justified by the benefits; I'm merely trying to compare the cost of airport security, in both time and money, with the cost of the sort of traffic regulation you're proposing.)

On the other hand, the kind of regulation you would need to have in order to, for example, make a serious dent in the rate of speeding, would be extremely draconian and would have huge costs. You would need traffic police on every major road, stopping people left and right; and you would need to do this continuously, or at least often enough that people would have a fairly high probability of getting caught if they speed. After all, most people do not speed just for the fun of it; they speed because it benefits them, because they get to wherever they are going faster. (I would also argue that most speed limits on highways are set too low, particularly given how the performance and handling of cars has improved over the years.) To make people not speed, you would have to raise its costs, in money and time lost, enough to outweigh the benefits, and that's a very tall order. Plus, you would have to hire all those traffic police, and pay them, and all the time they spend catching speeders would not be spent dealing with other issues that might actually be more important.

Similar remarks apply, although possibly with less force, to other types of regulations: for example, trying to enforce seat belt laws, or motorcycle helmet laws, or drunk driving laws. I say "possibly with less force" because the "benefits" to people of doing these things are less clear than the obvious benefit in time saved of speeding. I don't understand any more than you do why anyone would fail to use a seat belt; it only takes a few seconds to buckle up. (I don't ride motorcycles so I won't try to speculate on why people would not wear helmets.) People obviously derive pleasure from drinking, but that doesn't mean they necessarily derive pleasure from drunk driving; that seems more like bad planning than anything else. So it might not be quite as costly to try to regulate these behaviors as it would be to try to regulate speeding. But I think it would still be a lot more costly than airport security is.

Education is a different matter; but I'm not sure there's much that can be done with education that isn't already being done. Are there really many people who haven't been told that seat belts are a good idea?

The only other suggestion I have is to impose more severe consequences on the kinds of decisions that can significantly affect risk. For example, consider this modest proposal: if you are involved in any accident and you are found to be driving drunk, even if no one is injured or killed, you lose your driver's license, forever. Or consider this: allow auto insurance companies, and health insurance companies to the extent that their coverage extends to injuries suffered in auto accidents, to make you pay a higher deductible, or possibly even deny part or all of your coverage, if you are injured in an accident and are found not to have been wearing a seat belt, or you are found to be at fault and to have been driving at a clearly unsafe speed. (This would have to be explicitly stated in the policy, of course.) That would make people stop and think.

Re: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year

#132
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seems to be some serious low-hanging fruit here with regard to improving these numbers. Imagine if you took the billions currently spent by the TSA and applied it to road safety? Given what the rest of world does with airport security, it's possible to maintain airport security while at the same time freeing up massive resources which could be channeled into education (seriously, no seatbelts in 2014? ), polici…

most Americans don't fly I'm not sure that's actually true. According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, there were 646 million enplaned passengers in 2013. ("Enplaned passengers" means passengers boarding originating flights, i.e., either nonstops to the destination or the first leg of an itinerary with at least one connection.) That's more than twice the population of the US, and about 2.7 times the popula…

Speed enforcement is a political issue these days, not a cost issue, it is quite cheap to put speed cameras everywhere and many countries do. We could eliminate speeding if we wanted to, Americans just don't want to. So what if a few more people die every year...freedom!

Re: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year

#133
> In contrast, traffic fatalities in countries like the United Kingdom, where drivers are uniformly viewed as the greatest danger on streets, are about a third of U.S. rates.

Britain here.

This is absolutely false. We uniformly view cyclists as the greatest danger on the streets. No joke, ask around.

I would suggest the reason for our better stats is down to a) a bloody difficult driving test; b) the thing inside a lot of us that makes the nervous/apologetic stereotype actually be true also makes a lot of us quite risk averse and cautious; c) drink driving is a big no-no with very practical consequences near 100% of the time; d) education of how to cross a road starts at a very young age, the result being no jaywalking laws required and watching people cross busy, fast moving roads in cities looks like doing the same in some developing country except we're proper pro at it; e) the speedbump pandemic, an enormous pain in the arse to have them every 3 ft in residential areas but probably highly effective; f) many, many (most?) pedestrian-accessible roads predate almost all vehicles and are twisty, narrow, and generally difficult to navigate; f) motorways/dual carriageways (70mph) were designed in such a way that they are not at all accessible on foot; g) B-roads (60mph usually, narrow) join 2 interesting places through vast expanses of farmland, there's rarely a reason to be on foot near them.

Lots of reasons, none are fear.

Re: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the solution to unsafe roads is to throw everyone that is at-fault in an accident in jail. I understand the frustration cyclists have with auto traffic, but we've seen a million times that harsher penalties don't always have the intended outcome. And we have a habit in the US of using prison as the answer for every malady. Instead, I think the answer is better road design, separating cars and cyclists u…

I'm actually not fond of separating cars and cyclists using dedicated lanes. My experience has been that roads with bike lanes tend to be more dangerous - cars stop paying as much attention to bikes, so you get a lot more instances of them forgetting you're there and making a right hand turn right in front of you. Not to mention that they often force cyclists to ride within swinging distance of car doors - which is a…

Since bike lanes integrated into the road are common enough, I think when people demand dedicated bike lanes, they mean »not part of the road, but instead physically separated«. And those are indeed better, safety-wise.

Re: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year

#135
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, lets do all of that. But there is plenty of low-hanging fruit. Maximum of 20 mph everywhere you have pedestrians, certainly in any city or city center - the simple reasoning being that higher speed only reduces time to travel some distance linearly , but the forces at work in a potential collision increase quadratically . So this is a complete no-brainer tradeoff that is directly reflected in survival rates for…

This sounds like an argument for introducing a separate class of "city car" to the USA. On a highway, I want a big comfy car that can be efficient at 55-65 MPH, and protect me in a collision at those speeds. In a city, I don't really need that.

Sounds like a tuktuk, many cities in Asia have them, but they mix with car traffic.

Re: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year

#136
post #120
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am old enough to remember as a kid how people perceived automobiles in, say, the late 1950s, .... Even dissidents of the time, such as Jack Kerouac, .... Therefore, it did not take a secret plot by General Motors (or whomever) to get people to push widespread auto use. People wanted to.... This whole paragraph is missing the point---the purported "plot" was not a product of the 1950s, but of the 1920s. The eviden…

Exactly. Without a doubt there was a literal conspiracy to undermine urban mass transit during the 1930s and 1940s. Firestone, Phillips, Standard Oil, and GM were all convicted of conspiracy, for Pete's sake. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspi...

They were convicted of trying to monopolize sales of buses and bus parts, not eliminate mass transit.

Re: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year

#137

The dedicated bike lane is surely a great invention, but the implementation is often luck-luster and I think causes more harm than good. Santa Monica probably has more good bike lanes than most other US cities, but I am terrified to even try the new on 28th leading from Ocean Park to Pico and beyond to Olympic. They basically took a narrow street and tried to leave space for parking and add a bike lane on top of that…

As a result of issues with those kinds of lanes, Copenhagen changed direction a bit ago and now puts in only bike lanes physically separated by a curb from the car lanes, at least where possible (excluding some narrow streets). If there's street parking, the lane is also typically on the other side of the parked cars (the sidewalk side), making it even more impossible for someone to swerve from the car lanes into the…

I have big hopes for the metro line project in SM that includes a dedicated bike path that is linked with the path along the beach. The beach path is fully separated and the link that is not would only be a few blocks long.

The ocean bike path stretches from past Redondo beach to Pacific Palicades.

Re: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the solution to unsafe roads is to throw everyone that is at-fault in an accident in jail. I understand the frustration cyclists have with auto traffic, but we've seen a million times that harsher penalties don't always have the intended outcome. And we have a habit in the US of using prison as the answer for every malady. Instead, I think the answer is better road design, separating cars and cyclists u…

I'm actually not fond of separating cars and cyclists using dedicated lanes. My experience has been that roads with bike lanes tend to be more dangerous - cars stop paying as much attention to bikes, so you get a lot more instances of them forgetting you're there and making a right hand turn right in front of you. Not to mention that they often force cyclists to ride within swinging distance of car doors - which is a…

Bike lanes are often more dangerous, but that is generally due to poorly designed bike lanes .

There's lots of informative explanation on this blog http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/subjective...

Re: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year

#139

"Murder Machines"? Come on. Not all deaths are murder. We Americans have this idea that nothing bad should ever happen, that we should find a way to prevent it. It's a goal to shoot for, certainly. But calling it murder if you don't reach that goal? No. Can we climb down from the overheated rhetoric? It smells like propaganda.

It worked in the Netherlands with the "Stop the Child Murder" campaign http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23587916

It's now one of the safest and most pleasant places to get around.

Re: Why Cars Will Kill 30,000 Americans This Year

#140
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like an argument for introducing a separate class of "city car" to the USA. On a highway, I want a big comfy car that can be efficient at 55-65 MPH, and protect me in a collision at those speeds. In a city, I don't really need that.

That big comfy car that protects you from highway collisions accomplishes that by shifting the impact toward the smaller car. It doesn't increase overall highway safety, just steals it from others in your favor.

Big doesn't have to mean particularly heavy, and it's ridiculous of you to suggest that a couple extra feet of crumple zone isn't going to make impacts less forceful.
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