Live data from Hacker News

Lies, Maths, And Health Insurance

tauntermedia.com

21–30 of 32 posts

Re: Lies, Maths, And Health Insurance

#21
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is so true. The insurance companies for health care should be non-profits with set salaries for all the employees. The reason that people buy health insurance is for exactly the reason that the insurance companies drop the insured; They cost more money than they spend.

The latter point isn't entirely true - at its core, buying insurance isn't necessarily about using more than you put in over time, but rather mitigating risks (hedging). That's not necessarily how everyone treats the current system, or for that matter how it's set up, but there's certainly a tension between the "insurance" model and the "health savings account" model (and the current system sort of tries to do both).…

Perhaps a special fully transparent non-profit. You can pay employees whatever wage the market demands and with certain limits, like executive packages that have to be approved by "members" (policy holders).

As to your questions: 1 - The gov shouldn't do it because we want multiple of these entities, not just one. We need choice and competition, no single point of failure.

2 - It is common to say that extending home mortgages to higher risk groups, which Freddie played a role, was to further social goals. I simply do not buy it. Everything points to money. Extending these mortgages furthered the goals of the lenders and investment bankers and home builders as well. Look at who gave money to the politicians to make these policies happen. Hint: it was all of the above, except poor people. Yes, people who couldn't afford their homes benefited but they were not the lead players in making these policies happen.

As to your third question, companies that attempt to be more of a coop have to compete in the same market as the for-profit entities. I don't think you can solve this problem without leveling the playing field.

Re: Lies, Maths, And Health Insurance

#22
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole "evil insurance companies" thing is ridiculous. Companies are amoral and profit seeking. Wrong. Industries have distinct cultures, usually formed through self-selection due to the sort of people who choose careers in them. Compare police officers and firemen, for example. Similar sorts of work, but wildly different cultures due to self-selection effects. Now, what sort of culture do insurance companies have…

Now, what sort of culture do insurance companies have? I think that there's good evidence that it's a sick and cancerous one. If you have evidence to support this claim, provide it. It might be interesting. If you don't, you're just resorting to name-calling so you can win a boring argument about politics. We don't like that sort of thing here. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

"If you have evidence to support this claim, provide it. It might be interesting. If you don't, you're just resorting to name-calling so you can win a boring argument about politics. We don't like that sort of thing here."

I think the opinion of the parent falls under the heading of "arguments that do not require citation, because any educated citizen should be familiar with their content". Here's what I found in two seconds of Googling:

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/sep/17/business/fi-revoke17

http://select.nytimes.com/2006/09/22/opinion/22krugman.html?...

http://www.sickofbluecross.com/consumer_stories/

and here's a great podcst from last weekend on insurance companies and their rescission practices that I just happened to hear while making dinner (third story in; right around the 30 minute mark):

http://thislife.org/Radio_Episode.aspx?episode=386

...and that's just a taste of the information that's out there, available to anyone with even a passing inclination to look for it. Maybe the decisions documented in these articles don't constitute "evil", but I wouldn't characterize the them as "amoral", either. At the least, there's a strong argument to be made that the profit-seeking motive of American health insurance companies has gotten out of balance with its duty to protect the insured, and requires further regulation.

Re: Lies, Maths, And Health Insurance

#23
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The latter point isn't entirely true - at its core, buying insurance isn't necessarily about using more than you put in over time, but rather mitigating risks (hedging). That's not necessarily how everyone treats the current system, or for that matter how it's set up, but there's certainly a tension between the "insurance" model and the "health savings account" model (and the current system sort of tries to do both).…

The discourse on this site is great. No need to apologize for questioning anything. Here are my answers to your questions: 1. There is a big difference between government intervention and government run organizations. Government run implies inefficiency and waste. There will always be people that game the system. I am well aware of that, but if all the government did was make it a non profit it would do a lot to miti…

Government run implies inefficiency and waste

Not always. In fact, existing government-run healthcare systems are much more efficient than the present US system.

Re: Lies, Maths, And Health Insurance

#24
post #3

The Monty Hall problem has nothing to do with his statistics, which in any case are completely dependent on his unsupported assertions, cf.: "If, as I suspect, rescission is targeted toward the truly bankrupting cases – the top 1%..." "But let’s not forget that the very nature of the forms is designed to create inaccuracies" Not to mention: "I tend to think of traditional banking and traditional insurance as mirror i…

* There's no reason middlish class people need to have things like physicians' visits and normal prescription drugs filtered through an insurance company or the government, they're completely affordable and expectable on their own.*

There is a good reason for this: tax avoidance.

"Insurance" (against everything) is paid for with pre-tax dollars. Doctor visits are paid for with post-tax dollars (ignoring HSA's, etc).

If car insurance got the same tax benefits, then car insurance which pays for gas would probably be available.

Re: Lies, Maths, And Health Insurance

#25
post #2

It constantly amazes me as to how even the simplest and most shallow of figures ("It affects less than one-half of one percent of people we cover.") can lie in a spectacular way. I tend to think of myself as a fairly well-educated person, but I wouldn't have looked twice at this statement unless I was given good reason to. How many people are being manipulated by 'simple' and seemingly pure figures every day?

innumeracy is a far worse problem than you think. Here's an example that explains why most doctors are loathe to quote numbers to patients

http://yudkowsky.net/rational/bayes

Re: Lies, Maths, And Health Insurance

#26
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The discourse on this site is great. No need to apologize for questioning anything. Here are my answers to your questions: 1. There is a big difference between government intervention and government run organizations. Government run implies inefficiency and waste. There will always be people that game the system. I am well aware of that, but if all the government did was make it a non profit it would do a lot to miti…

Government run implies inefficiency and waste Not always. In fact, existing government-run healthcare systems are much more efficient than the present US system.

If by "much more efficient", you mean "lethally long waiting times for treatment, limited choice and no means to estimate competency of treatment providers", then you are correct.

Re: Lies, Maths, And Health Insurance

#27
post #14
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then the article "lies" in the same way: "If the top 5% is the absolute largest population for whom rescission would make sense, the probability of having your policy cancelled given that you have filed a claim is fully 10% (0.5% rescission/5.0% of the population)." Let's assume his numbers are correct. Is 10% high or low? Who knows. What is the probability of the applicant having lied, given that they have filed tha…

The whole "evil insurance companies" thing is ridiculous. Companies are amoral and profit seeking. Wrong. Industries have distinct cultures, usually formed through self-selection due to the sort of people who choose careers in them. Compare police officers and firemen, for example. Similar sorts of work, but wildly different cultures due to self-selection effects. Now, what sort of culture do insurance companies have…

Hospital Sues Health Insurance Company For Cheating Patients Out of Emergency Care http://www.litigationandtrial.com/2009/07/articles/litigatio...

Re: Lies, Maths, And Health Insurance

#28
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The essential problem is that the person paying the premium is not the insurance companies "customer". The health insurance company's customer is the shareholder, not the premium payer, that has to end. I have built software for health insurance companies. I can tell you for certain they only look at the details of a policy for rescission purposes for those policies that are costing them far more than the premium has…

That is so true. The insurance companies for health care should be non-profits with set salaries for all the employees. The reason that people buy health insurance is for exactly the reason that the insurance companies drop the insured; They cost more money than they spend.

> The insurance companies for health care should be non-profits with set salaries for all the employees.

IIRC, Kaiser is non-profit.

If you think that you can do better, why aren't you doing it? You'll do incredible good for everyone, you'll drive the evil companies out of biz, and I'm sure that we will cut you some slack and let you get rich by whatever standard you deem appropriate.

Re: Lies, Maths, And Health Insurance

#29
post #2

It constantly amazes me as to how even the simplest and most shallow of figures ("It affects less than one-half of one percent of people we cover.") can lie in a spectacular way. I tend to think of myself as a fairly well-educated person, but I wouldn't have looked twice at this statement unless I was given good reason to. How many people are being manipulated by 'simple' and seemingly pure figures every day?

The real question here is, of those .5% who had their policy cancelled, how many of them actually lied about a preexisting condition that they then filed a claim for? Because if there's even ONE person who had their policy cancelled unjustly, then that is one person too many.

Re: Lies, Maths, And Health Insurance

#30
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is so true. The insurance companies for health care should be non-profits with set salaries for all the employees. The reason that people buy health insurance is for exactly the reason that the insurance companies drop the insured; They cost more money than they spend.

> The insurance companies for health care should be non-profits with set salaries for all the employees. IIRC, Kaiser is non-profit. If you think that you can do better, why aren't you doing it? You'll do incredible good for everyone, you'll drive the evil companies out of biz, and I'm sure that we will cut you some slack and let you get rich by whatever standard you deem appropriate.

"Kaiser Permanente" is technically three separate companies that share (some) infrastructure and (some) employees.

Kaiser Foundation Health Plan Inc. is non-profit. Kaiser Foundation Hospitals is non-profit. Permanente Medical Group (the doctors) is for-profit.

Post reply on HN