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Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit

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Re: Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit

#21

Post by benesch »

untog wrote: post #16
danielweber wrote: post #14

I'd love this. If American public transportation fans would stop fantasizing about trains and instead do what really works for most people -- buses -- then we could have things a lot better. I've been waiting for years for a service that dispatches a nice bus to ride in on my way to work without me having to walk/drive to a bus stop and hope the schedule is right. I'd accept a modest increase in the commute time if I…

If American public transportation fans would stop fantasizing about trains and instead do what really works for most people -- buses Trains really work for large numbers of people. A single NYC subway train can carry something like 2,400 people. A bus can carry something like 1/10 of that at best. Once you factor in the subway and local train services to New Jersey, CT, Long Island and Upstate New York you really, re…

Oh god. Even a bi-articulated bus with 240 people on it is emphatically not a bus I would want to be on.

Re: Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit

#22

Post by maxerickson »

untog wrote: post #16
danielweber wrote: post #14

I'd love this. If American public transportation fans would stop fantasizing about trains and instead do what really works for most people -- buses -- then we could have things a lot better. I've been waiting for years for a service that dispatches a nice bus to ride in on my way to work without me having to walk/drive to a bus stop and hope the schedule is right. I'd accept a modest increase in the commute time if I…

If American public transportation fans would stop fantasizing about trains and instead do what really works for most people -- buses Trains really work for large numbers of people. A single NYC subway train can carry something like 2,400 people. A bus can carry something like 1/10 of that at best. Once you factor in the subway and local train services to New Jersey, CT, Long Island and Upstate New York you really, re…

Sure. Trains work great where you already have them and lots of people that want to ride them. They also work pretty well if you have a massive budget and the political will and power to build out sensible routes.

So they don't work for a whole bunch of the U.S.

Re: Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit

#23

Post by mikeash »

ekianjo wrote: post #20
untog wrote: post #11

Now this is interesting, when compared to Uber and the like. I imagine it requires a large ridership to be worthwhile (otherwise you're basically dispatching large cabs, but charging less), but it's a fascinating concept for large cities. I imagine there are downsides though - if you're using it to get to work then surely your journey time is variable?

There's kind of similar services in Japan to get to the airport, using a shared-taxi kind of system with online reservation. It's way better than the bus to reach the terminal (they pick you at home) costs only a bit more and is significantly cheaper than a taxi ride (5 times less).

They're pretty common in the US too. SuperShuttle seems to be the big name in this area. They cover a ton of different airports and go to your house. The price differential is similar, at $27-28 for a round trip from my house versus $50ish each way for a taxi. Or $4 for a metro ride, but that currently only serves one of the two airports.

Re: Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit

#24

Post by mikeash »

maxerickson wrote: post #22
untog wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If American public transportation fans would stop fantasizing about trains and instead do what really works for most people -- buses Trains really work for large numbers of people. A single NYC subway train can carry something like 2,400 people. A bus can carry something like 1/10 of that at best. Once you factor in the subway and local train services to New Jersey, CT, Long Island and Upstate New York you really, re…

Sure. Trains work great where you already have them and lots of people that want to ride them. They also work pretty well if you have a massive budget and the political will and power to build out sensible routes. So they don't work for a whole bunch of the U.S.

Budget, political will, and power are three sides of the same coin (you heard me), and one person's "fantasizing about trains" is another person's "trying to convince the public that it's worth spending the money".

Re: Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit

#25

Post by Zigurd »

If you don't have consistent high ridership buses can easily fall below the efficiency of cars. I'd bet DRT could replace a lot of bus lines that are not hitting efficiency thresholds and deliver better service.

Might be a good solution for lower-density areas where its difficult to make buses efficient. I wonder how low the population density can go before DRT stops working.

Re: Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit

#26

Post by mikeash »

jasondemeuse wrote: post #18
danielweber wrote: post #14

I'd love this. If American public transportation fans would stop fantasizing about trains and instead do what really works for most people -- buses -- then we could have things a lot better. I've been waiting for years for a service that dispatches a nice bus to ride in on my way to work without me having to walk/drive to a bus stop and hope the schedule is right. I'd accept a modest increase in the commute time if I…

>do what really works for most people -- buses Do buses really work better for most people? I live in Chicago and it seems like most people I know (including me) ride the trains unless it can be avoided.

It seems to be universal. I've seen it in places from SF to DC to small-town France to Beijing: the bus a second choice that you only take when the train doesn't go where you need it to go.

I'm still trying to figure out why, though. Despite sharing that opinion myself, I still can't quite figure out what the concrete reasons are. It seems to come down to: subway routes are much easier to figure out, stops are much better labeled, and the ride is much more comfortable. However, those first two don't seem like inherent problems with buses, merely how they happen to be built, but it seems like they're that way everywhere.

Re: Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit

#27

Post by peterwwillis »

AznHisoka wrote: post #12
untog wrote: post #11

Now this is interesting, when compared to Uber and the like. I imagine it requires a large ridership to be worthwhile (otherwise you're basically dispatching large cabs, but charging less), but it's a fascinating concept for large cities. I imagine there are downsides though - if you're using it to get to work then surely your journey time is variable?

This is 1000 times more interesting AND useful than Uber. There are concerns with variable journey time, but after a few days of using it, you'll get a sense how long it'll take. I don't care if it even takes longer than my current commute. I'll definitely use this if it means I get a seat, or am not in a uber crowded bus or subway. That's assuming they don't operate like a normal bus and squeeze as many people in, o…

This would actually mean a much shorter commute in terms of public transportation. You wouldn't have to fit your commute time to the public transit schedule and pick-up/drop-off points, it would be synchronized to fit you.

If you live in Takoma Park, DC, and commute to Rockville, Maryland, the public transit option is a bus to a train to a bus for 1.5 hours (if it's on time, not accounting for getting from the house to the bus stop). But the drive is 23 minutes! With Kutsuplus you request your destination and it'll send the next shuttle that's going to Rockville to you.

Even if you have to wait 30 minutes for it to arrive it's still much shorter than public transit, and cheaper, and doesn't require waiting outside for a bus or train. The typical cost for that route is over $6.50 each way! (for comparison, the daily train from Baltimore to DC is $7) But a Kutsuplus could use dynamic pricing ala Uber to change the cost along demand/efficiency. A route that uses mainly highway miles going away from the beltway should be considerably cheaper than going through the city or towards the beltway, in the morning, and cheaper in the opposite direction at night, due to common DC traffic patterns.

Re: Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit

#28

Post by mostly_harmless »

I believe that the big shipping companies (UPS, Fedex), have algorithms specifically designed around dynamic route planning like this. I wonder if it would be feasible for one of them to create a spin off business for just this purpose.

Re: Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit

#29

Post by TillE »

mikeash wrote: post #26
jasondemeuse wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>do what really works for most people -- buses Do buses really work better for most people? I live in Chicago and it seems like most people I know (including me) ride the trains unless it can be avoided.

It seems to be universal. I've seen it in places from SF to DC to small-town France to Beijing: the bus a second choice that you only take when the train doesn't go where you need it to go. I'm still trying to figure out why , though. Despite sharing that opinion myself, I still can't quite figure out what the concrete reasons are. It seems to come down to: subway routes are much easier to figure out, stops are much…

I agree with all three of your reasons, and I'll add another big one: speed. Trains are faster, both inherently and because they make fewer stops.

Re: Helsinki’s personalized bus service is like Uber for public transit

#30

Post by toomuchtodo »

mikeash wrote: post #26
jasondemeuse wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>do what really works for most people -- buses Do buses really work better for most people? I live in Chicago and it seems like most people I know (including me) ride the trains unless it can be avoided.

It seems to be universal. I've seen it in places from SF to DC to small-town France to Beijing: the bus a second choice that you only take when the train doesn't go where you need it to go. I'm still trying to figure out why , though. Despite sharing that opinion myself, I still can't quite figure out what the concrete reasons are. It seems to come down to: subway routes are much easier to figure out, stops are much…

> I'm still trying to figure out why, though.

I'm in Chicago, same as OP. The elevated train has exclusive access to the tracks, whereas busses have to compete with private vehicles on the road. I'd rather be on the El.

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