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Why I am Not a Professor, or The Decline and Fall of the British University

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Re: Why I am Not a Professor, or The Decline and Fall of the British University

#101
post #91
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You claim that "the only reasons Java is taught is because students demand it," and it appears your objection is based on this claim. Do you have any support for this claim outside of your personal belief? My undergrad made the switch to Java right before I graduated, and they are a counter-example to your claim. Also, I doubt your claim about C is true. C was used because it was close to the machine without actually…

I think his claim is based on the belief that Java has no academic merit (in the context of the other languages he mentioned) - it's just useful for development.

Well exactly. What aspect of theoretical computer science is Java better suited to teaching than any other language?

Kids these days don't understand that computer science and software development are distinct disciplines.

Re: Why I am Not a Professor, or The Decline and Fall of the British University

#102
post #97

Should be "The Decline and Fall of a British University". The only thing this article tells us is the quality of the students that study at Leeds. It's a bit of a stretch to extrapolate from experience of one department in one university to claim that the same is happening everywhere.

It's up to you to show that central government's national policy only applies to one university...

Re: Why I am Not a Professor, or The Decline and Fall of the British University

#103
post #76
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the "Java C"-debate is an instance of the problem "Should studying computer science be mindwreckingly hard or should studying computer science make you able to program things?". Plus, you can also bash Java in this special instance, which is always nice coughs . Other instances include "Compiler construction or not?", "Theoretical computer science or not?", "Assembler or not?".

That would hold up if learning a bit of memory management was actually "mindwreckingly hard".

And then you had to debug something which resulted from corrupted pointers into the stack, partially being still good data and partially being nonsense.

Re: Why I am Not a Professor, or The Decline and Fall of the British University

#104
The gentleman is right on; in the US too it's far from a new story. The decline started in secondary and then spread up through higher education.

But does the fault really start with the students, as he claims, or is that blaming the victim? Certainly noone wants to work as hard as people used to ... that's a fact. The old culture (50 to 100 years ago) also supported a much lower population, and there were many more resources - many trees to chop, dams to build, necessities to invent ... all that's now paved over.

Many more people wanted to attend college to get 'the good jobs'. Only,there was only such much demand on the high-end. You wind up with an over-educated population, deep in debt, with Great Expectations that just won't be happening. Those who can't be anaesthetized with TV or video games or web-surfing inevitably turn their frustrated analytical skills upon the powers-that-be.

So, well, here we are. Clearly colleges are in for a deep re-organization. We need to recreate eduction - but to what end? what future will we re-tool to create?. And how will we provide opportunities for all that 'computing power' waiting to be harnessed!

Re: Why I am Not a Professor, or The Decline and Fall of the British University

#105
post #97

Should be "The Decline and Fall of a British University". The only thing this article tells us is the quality of the students that study at Leeds. It's a bit of a stretch to extrapolate from experience of one department in one university to claim that the same is happening everywhere.

No, he's right. I've experienced this first hand during my undergraduate and second hand through friends at different Universities.

It's the sad truth of (the majority*) of British CS education...

I'm led to believe Cambridge, Oxford, York and probably a few others still teach good CS courses to strong students, but on the whole ...

Re: Why I am Not a Professor, or The Decline and Fall of the British University

#106
post #97

Should be "The Decline and Fall of a British University". The only thing this article tells us is the quality of the students that study at Leeds. It's a bit of a stretch to extrapolate from experience of one department in one university to claim that the same is happening everywhere.

His experience at Leeds is not uncommon.

I originally graduated from one of the better known universities in 1983, and returned to post-graduate study and teaching in 1989. I experienced an even worse scenario then he - teaching as a part-time temporary lecturer at several of the 3rd tier universities (polytechnics).

Even when students turned in work that was totally incoherent (unfinished sentences and half the size of the minimum word count), I wasn't allowed to fail them. This was on modular degree courses, were most (if not all) of the assessment was of such submitted work.

For years I witnessed half the students turn up to class with no recriminations against the non-attendees, and with only half of the actual attendees having read the 1 or 2 articles which were required reading for that class (photocopies of which they had been given previously, so they didn't have to find the original journals themselves).

The overall level of education and comprehension was appalling. I realised that pursuing such a career was a path to frustration.

In 1997 I decided I couldn't be part of this sham any more. I have friends who had gone through the same experiences as I, and they too decided to quit and find new careers. The story of one of them was even written up in a national newspaper ten years ago.

I have other friends who teach only at post-graduate level. They are shocked by the lack of basic maths, basic grammar and basic essay-writing skills of the graduates they teach. And in their institutions they too provide the students with all the reading matter, so that these post-graduate students don't have to find their way round a library or find out anything for themselves.

Degrees from UK universities were now meaningless, and it was only a matter of time before the wider world found out. What will probably happen is that employers and/or students will realise that in the majority of work-related degrees the degree itself doesn't indicate anything in terms of skills or competencies.

Several of my neices and nephews have gone to university. Whilst I went there to study, their principal purpose is to party.

My partner is Thai, and I know several of his family and friends who graduated from Thai universities. Some have completed post-graduate qualifications. Yet they would never read a book that was more complex than Harry Potter (even in Thai). Nor would they ever go to a museum or art gallery.

Degrees have just become something that most people do either as a way to move out of home safely and/or a stepping stone to a job. For most graduates there is no sense of education being important in itself.

Re: Why I am Not a Professor, or The Decline and Fall of the British University

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moreover, your freedom is severely restricted by the scientific approach demanded by computer science. It is hard to fund/publish novel ideas that are not easy to evaluate. What? That's the point -- science is hard. If it weren't hard it wouldn't be worth doing. I guess you could argue that academia is bad because you don't get to sit around and jerk off and collect a pay check, and you'd be right, but you would comp…

I don't care about advancement of a field. I care about working on novel ideas that are of interest to me.

Academia can often be a good place to do that, but it depends on exactly what you are working on. I don't know of anywhere else where I could get paid to work on what I find interesting (but I am not a computer scientist).

One thing you're missing here is the collaborative aspect of academia. Most people work much better when they're constantly in contact with other people who are experts in their areas of interest. In many subjects, you just have to be in an academic environment to get that, since there isn't a culture of online discussion. For example, there is very little high quality discussion of philosophy online. (For whatever reason, the best philosophers just don't engage in it.)

If you're trying to do serious intellectual work, don't kid yourself that you can work out for yourself whether you've got it right or not. You need other experts to tell you when you're full of crap.

Re: Why I am Not a Professor, or The Decline and Fall of the British University

#108
post #47

> By pre-1990 standards about 20% of the students should have been failed. Interesting, I find that number quite low. The failure rates for most CS courses at my BSc/MSc university (VU Amsterdam) usually hovered around 50% in the post-00s era, especially for the hard-line courses such as computer networks, finite fields and data structures. We were allowed to do an unlimited number of retrials (6 months in between),…

I don't understand the value of failing students in this way. At medical school I failed some exams but was allowed to retake them, and received coaching for one of the re-takes. (Relax, I had to prove I'd learned the material before I could work with patients.) At my brother's economics PhD, however, the school (can you guess which it is) took pride in failing 50% of the class. Why? And when the students are going i…

It's not about failing students. Sure, students could be failing because your education is poor. That was not the case. It's about challenging students to the point where those with the intellectual prowess and discipline and the rest go on to study something that more closely matches their abilities (and the university should help them with that).

Debt is never a serious problem in the Netherlands. The government interest rates are so low that if you loan the maximum and put the money in bonds or a high interest savings account you'll actually turn a profit.

Re: Why I am Not a Professor, or The Decline and Fall of the British University

#109
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think comments like there are border-line trolls in a community like HN. The languages used in various parts of a CS curriculum are one component to the whole. Holding up that component as the reason that the sky is falling is, at best, disingenuous. I can construct terrible CS curriculums that start with C, and terrific ones that start with Java. If those who construct the curriculum want the beginning courses to…

"If those who construct the curriculum want the beginning courses to focus on algorithmic thinking, I think it's fair to use a language that abstracts away much of the physical machine. The abstractions can be peeled away in later courses." I don't know that Java does this all the much better than C. The problem with C for a beginning student isn't so much that you have to manage memory manually--it generally takes a…

Actually I'd argue that with C, you have to start managing memory manually before you even get to malloc. The abstraction advantage of Java over C (not that I think Java is necessarily a better intro language) is that you can generally explain the syntax in abstract concepts and then use it like you'd expect. With C, it's far more likely to encounter scenarios that don't fit a simple model of understanding.

For example, unless you're concerned with specific performance issues, you're not likely to care how a string is implemented in Java. It's difficult to use strings in C without understanding memory. Without understanding when strings are mutable and when they aren't, what null-terminated means, how "%s" works, and such you will quickly run into some unexpected behavior and will likely just trial and error until you get something that seems to work. When you understand that C is a syntax for allocating and manipulating memory, it tends to make a lot more sense.

Re: Why I am Not a Professor, or The Decline and Fall of the British University

#110
post #97

Should be "The Decline and Fall of a British University". The only thing this article tells us is the quality of the students that study at Leeds. It's a bit of a stretch to extrapolate from experience of one department in one university to claim that the same is happening everywhere.

His experience at Leeds is not uncommon. I originally graduated from one of the better known universities in 1983, and returned to post-graduate study and teaching in 1989. I experienced an even worse scenario then he - teaching as a part-time temporary lecturer at several of the 3rd tier universities (polytechnics). Even when students turned in work that was totally incoherent (unfinished sentences and half the size…

Thanks for the reply.

Just looked up at Leeds on Wikipedia - I'd assumed it was a fairly mid-range institution (and so I thought there'd be other institutions the same or worse, but many which were better). Just found out it's in the Russell Group. Christ. I (partially) retract my earlier respones.

I study CS (just finished first year) in the UK at a institution that usually places in the top 10... now you mention it, a lot of students do match those described by you and others. However, it's easy to ignore these people, since they never go to lectures (I have friends on other courses who say they attend on average 1 lecture a term...) It's trite, but with university, I feel you get out what you put in.

The opportunity to mix with the people who are bright and motivated (and they do exist) is great, as is having a library full of free programming books. For every student who only goes to party, there's one in the CS building late at night writing a Scheme parser in Haskell. (OK, the ratio's probably more like 3:1, but you get my drift).

On the other hand, I feel like I've learned about as much from pursuing independent projects than I have from my course, though the resources on campus make such projects easier.

BTW, a large part of me is thinking about dropping out of university at some stage and startup a startup - read too much pg - so I've been thinking about the value of university lately.

CS is a bit of an odd subject in this regard - with a lot of subjects^, I'd guess a majority of students don't expect their degree to be useful in their future careers (how many history grads become history teachers?), so it's understandable that many would just see their degree as a career ticket. I do actually hope to learn useful stuff on my course, but I'm not sure if I'd learn more by dropping out and starting up.

*Exceptions I can think of - Law, Medicine, and possibly foreign languages, Engineering, and Economics. Also more 'vocational' subjects like Nursing.

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