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Amazon's War On The House Of Otto, Germany's $18 Billion Family

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Re: Amazon's War On The House Of Otto, Germany's $18 Billion Family

#61

Post by tedks »

normloman wrote: post #18
mfrommil wrote: post #7

There's such a strong negative connotation to "burning out" in the article. If an employee puts in a solid 2-3 years and delivers great results for a company, "burns out", and then moves on to a new role or company, is that really that bad? The company (in this case, Amazon) got great results from its employee, the employee had a good experience (and can leverage it to get a promotion, internally or externally). I gu…

"I guess it depends on what employees are looking for in their career - to be the best they can be, or live a laid back lifestyle." You're not being the best when you burn out. You're killing yourself and your productivity with it. We have decades of research concluding that productivity falls when you're overworked. "The company (in this case, Amazon) got great results from its employee, the employee had a good expe…

>Yes, because companies shouldn't have to work their employees to the bone to extract value from them. A long time ago, we decided that it's cruel, and created labor laws. Where have you been?

Who is 'we'? You're wearing clothes and using a computer and probably exclusively using products that were made in nation-states that have virtually no labor laws. Where were you when globalization happened?

Regardless of moralizing in Western countries, you have decided it is not cruel to work employees to the bone and discard them when they break. You decided that when you bought the shirt you're wearing and the computer you're using.

Whether or not the status quo is right is one question; but you are wrong about what it is.

Re: Amazon's War On The House Of Otto, Germany's $18 Billion Family

#62

Post by refurb »

PythonicAlpha wrote: post #43
mxfh wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's right there with the "trickle-down" myth. The whole idea that that CSR[1] somehow frees companies from paying their share in social taxes and exempts them from regulations[2]; that the government controlled social sector and welfare could be privatized (at least in Germany there's something left) and social taxes and regulations could be replaced by voluntary CSR measures. It might work for a few PR-exploitable…

I do not know, who ever came up with the idea, that voluntary CSR could replace social taxes and regulations, but in my opinion, that is nothing else as neo-capitalistic bullshit, again! Those that believe in it should go to the worst areas of England and into the slums of the US and see what the results are. England once was one of the wealthiest and best to live in countries of the world. Now, after Thatcher, it is…

Hmmm... that doesn't make much sense.

The UK was in terrible economic shape before Thatcher.

Re: Amazon's War On The House Of Otto, Germany's $18 Billion Family

#63

Post by refurb »

BrandonMarc wrote: post #56
samplonius wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? I'm corrupt, and their are scavengers rummaging through the alley that runs behind the office. How do I leverage this poverty to make some sweet green? I've watched them dig through the trash, and they don't have anything, and they are just collecting bottles and cans for recycling. How do I profit from this?

Payday lending and rent-to-own are two legal, and rather corrupt* ways to scam money from poor people. * In general these businesses do not make their lives better; they're worse off than if they hadn't done business with them in the first place. In general ... ymmv

So you're saying if someone need $100 right now and has terrible credit, that's it's better that they can't get the $100 at all, rather than pay a high interest rate?

Re: Amazon's War On The House Of Otto, Germany's $18 Billion Family

#64

Post by terhechte »

mxfh wrote: post #9

If you see how Hermes Group, an Otto owned logistics company, (sub-)subcontractors have to handle their daily work load at (often below) minimum wage pay, often with their private cars, it's hard to believe he's that serious about running a morally superior business for any other reason than getting good PR. DHL is not golden either but Hermes is just bad in every aspect. As a private customer in Germany I would try…

In contrast, I know a couple of people that work for Otto directly (i.e. not for Otto owned companies like Hermes or MyToys) and their work environments are fantastic. I also have friends in other big companies like Unilever, Mondelēz (former Kraft), and more, and based on what I am told, Otto offers the best working conditions.

Logistics companies are currently in a hard and cut throat market, and the only place where you can order and be kinda assured that the workers working conditions are o.k. is, I think, Deutsche Post. Doesn't make it right, but as explained above, some of Otto's other endeavours do indeed excel with very good working conditions.

Re: Amazon's War On The House Of Otto, Germany's $18 Billion Family

#65

Post by VMG »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #41
VMG wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

soon robots will eliminate those jobs completely anyway, the ultimate protection against low-wage jobs

The option then will be simple: Pitchforks or a Basic Income.

In the past, the reaction to pitchfork was usually emigration

Re: Amazon's War On The House Of Otto, Germany's $18 Billion Family

#66

Post by dllthomas »

refurb wrote: post #62
PythonicAlpha wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not know, who ever came up with the idea, that voluntary CSR could replace social taxes and regulations, but in my opinion, that is nothing else as neo-capitalistic bullshit, again! Those that believe in it should go to the worst areas of England and into the slums of the US and see what the results are. England once was one of the wealthiest and best to live in countries of the world. Now, after Thatcher, it is…

Hmmm... that doesn't make much sense. The UK was in terrible economic shape before Thatcher.

That was my recollection, but looking at plots of real GDP per capita and debt/GDP, I'm not seeing any substantive changes associated with the Thatcher years. Is there any metric where it pops?

Re: Amazon's War On The House Of Otto, Germany's $18 Billion Family

#67

Post by PythonicAlpha »

refurb wrote: post #62
PythonicAlpha wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not know, who ever came up with the idea, that voluntary CSR could replace social taxes and regulations, but in my opinion, that is nothing else as neo-capitalistic bullshit, again! Those that believe in it should go to the worst areas of England and into the slums of the US and see what the results are. England once was one of the wealthiest and best to live in countries of the world. Now, after Thatcher, it is…

Hmmm... that doesn't make much sense. The UK was in terrible economic shape before Thatcher.

Thatcher was highly regarded as role model how profitable it is to go for more privatization. But the result is, that today the UK is in worse state as it was before Thatcher.

It was profitable of course! But not for the 99% of the people.

Re: Amazon's War On The House Of Otto, Germany's $18 Billion Family

#68

Post by PythonicAlpha »

mathattack wrote: post #52
mxfh wrote: post #9

If you see how Hermes Group, an Otto owned logistics company, (sub-)subcontractors have to handle their daily work load at (often below) minimum wage pay, often with their private cars, it's hard to believe he's that serious about running a morally superior business for any other reason than getting good PR. DHL is not golden either but Hermes is just bad in every aspect. As a private customer in Germany I would try…

This is true of a lot of firms. Large companies like to be pillars of the business community, but push their problems to their suppliers. It's not just Otto. The other challenge is it's hard to change a paternalistic culture where "Dad" is looking out for everyone. It's hard to make change happen, and hard to get people to double down during a crisis. The lethargy at these cultures is palpable.

That is right. It seems to me a large trend today, to install this "chain of irresponsibility" in many companies. Because they can save some money and say it is not their fault, when somebody criticizes.

But since it seems to me, that Hermes was one of the first in the Germany based parcel delivery businesses to use this concept, they have no excuse. What kind of excuse is it anyway to say "the others are doing it too!". Tell that in a courtroom after a murder!

It is the same game, btw. that western companies play in 3rd world companies. They do not open the sweat shops themselves, but work with contractors or sub-contractors or even sub-sub-contractors. And when a sweat shop burns down, to many workers kill themselves (all things that already happen(ed)) or something else happens -- they know about nothing and are horrified by the "bad behavior" of their contractor that they would "never imagine"!

Re: Amazon's War On The House Of Otto, Germany's $18 Billion Family

#69

Post by PythonicAlpha »

terhechte wrote: post #64
mxfh wrote: post #9

If you see how Hermes Group, an Otto owned logistics company, (sub-)subcontractors have to handle their daily work load at (often below) minimum wage pay, often with their private cars, it's hard to believe he's that serious about running a morally superior business for any other reason than getting good PR. DHL is not golden either but Hermes is just bad in every aspect. As a private customer in Germany I would try…

In contrast, I know a couple of people that work for Otto directly (i.e. not for Otto owned companies like Hermes or MyToys) and their work environments are fantastic. I also have friends in other big companies like Unilever, Mondelēz (former Kraft), and more, and based on what I am told, Otto offers the best working conditions. Logistics companies are currently in a hard and cut throat market, and the only place whe…

The working conditions of Deutsche Post are changing too. The base personal still is fairing very well, I think, but the parcel department DHL is more and more also working with sub-contractors. A similar model as Hermes is doing. But it must be said, that Hermes was one of those that started this race. So, it is legitimate I think to say, that DHL reacted on the move of Hermes, since the big companies are demanding the lowest prices and Hermes of course is ahead with its model against a Deutsche Post with guaranteed jobs, relatively high salaries and high costs for pensions.

Re: Amazon's War On The House Of Otto, Germany's $18 Billion Family

#70

Post by toomuchtodo »

VMG wrote: post #65
toomuchtodo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The option then will be simple: Pitchforks or a Basic Income.

In the past, the reaction to pitchfork was usually emigration

To where? An island with no poor people? The world is too small for emigration to be a solution anymore.
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