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Evicted in San Francisco

priceonomics.com

241–250 of 257 posts

Re: Evicted in San Francisco

#241
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it's done through a coercive act of government, yes.

ok, yeah, I think I read that chapter in Das Capital about how to increase your capital by using government to restrict supply.

You can be as sarcastic as you like, but Marx isn't the only one who gets to define socialism. Coercive government action can rightly be lumped in with socialism. It does not mean that only socialist take coercive government action, but it does not disqualify socialism from this type of activity.

Re: Evicted in San Francisco

#242
post #200
post #162

The article is a Rorschach test for housing policy. Do you see yourself as the vulnerable elderly tenant, forced to move and abandon your longtime existence? Or the kindly landlord, trapped between two contradictory legal regimes? I live in San Francisco, and own a 2-unit building in the heart of the tech shuttle stops near Dolores Park. I had rented in the city for years before that. I couldn't have bought my place…

Granted it is very hard to evict a rent-controlled tenant in San Francisco, so I can understand your trepidation, but San Francisco rent control already works pretty much like your prescription: there is an annual allowed rent increase, and rents reset when the tenant moves out. In other words, this is "soft" rent control as opposed to "hard" rent control where prices are fixed, essentially forever. https://www.aeawe…

The linked article is great reading, thanks!

It's true that landlords can set the price of a vacant unit arbitrarily, unlike say NYC's rent stabilization, which limits increases even between tenants.

However, I'd argue SF rent control isn't very "soft" by the article's definition - there's no hardship or rate of return provisions for the landlord, and during a tenant's stay, the allowable increases are negligible (less than CPI/inflation and certainly much less than market rate you'd expect on an investment with similar risk). Because a landlord has to evaluate a potential tenant for a lifetime lease, a lot of the same negative dynamics apply during the rental transaction. The landlord is trying to reduce their uncertainty - finding a tenant who will not only pay the greatest possible rent, but also stay for the shortest possible time.

As market prices rise, tenants of rent-controlled units are highly incentivized to stay in their current home, because a new lease would be so much more expensive. This further reduces the available supply.

It gets even worse when you consider the variety of protected classes SF rental law has created. Elderly and disabled tenants cannot be evicted without special cause, even if they've stopped paying rent years ago. The intent of the law is good: to protect vulnerable populations who would suffer greatly if they were evicted. But in effect, it only protects vulnerable tenants who already have a lease. Every other member of that class will find it much harder to find housing, because their tenancy comes with strings attached. There are anti-discrimination provisions in housing law, but in a competitive market, those are incredibly difficult to enforce.

Re: Evicted in San Francisco

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand at all what I advocate.

You advocate, in your own words, allowing people to die on the street unless private citizens decide to render assistance. I would far, far rather have state aid than that.

You imply that, left to their own devices, free to serve their own self-interest, private citizens would not decide to help "people dying on the streets."

So in essence you imply that the state must act as a coercive mechanism to override the personal interest of its productive citizens.

From where I stand it appears that you endorse tyranny. Can you explain otherwise?

Re: Evicted in San Francisco

#244
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, what? Risk and uncertainty are universal. Everyone has to deal with their existence. There have been plenty of insurance systems developed throughout time whereby people can hedge their risks. Previously however insurance was informal and consensual - you signed up to a Roman college. You and everyone else in the society engaged in it of your own free choice. If your group couldn't manage its finances it went…

The existing systems were created out of necessity, and were fundamental to the establishment of the middle class. You talk about Roman College as if it were something available to the destitute, 70-year old serf? Come on. Today we have millions of people working full-time jobs, making less than a living wage. That is a structural, societal problem, and no planning on an individual laborer's level is going to counter…

1) Life-expectancy in Roman times was very low. 50 is a more appropriate age for your rhetoric.

2) "Serfs" are medieval. And besides, this is an argument about free citizens, so the very concept is irrelevant.

3) The colleges were all independent, spontaneously organised by poor citizens. Anyway, apart from subsidised grain and generalised patronage the Roman ruling classes didn't design social welfare systems akin to anything we would recognise (and again, the comparison is difficult, because the patricians were generally using their own fortunes to win favour with the masses)

4) The colleges insured primarily against the possibility of funeral costs in the event of sudden death - the most important shock financial event the average poor Roman expected to face. There was no effective medical technology in Roman times, but Romans cared a lot about having a good funeral and being remembered.

5) The colleges weren't "available" to anyone unless they paid their way. If you wanted that protection, you paid your membership dues. So yes, if the destitute old free citizen had been prudent and consistently paid their dues before striking bad luck, they would be okay (well, they'd get their nice funeral, but you know what I mean.)

6) Maybe your millions of people making "less than the living wage" (however you define that) should take a leaf out of the book that seems popular to users of this site - looking for ways to improve the value of the services they offer?

7) What is so wrong with the idea of people directly petitioning others for funds to purchase healthcare? Heck, they don't even need to just petition the extremely wealthy. Powerful modern technology allows people to petition the entire world for funds (if they can convince people their cause is worthy.)[1] One of the benefits of living in a more advanced age than 50BC.

8) I feel like you are imagining me wrong. To be clear: I am young, broke, and largely unaccomplished. I have no significant assets beyond my intelligence and my ambition. I have no vested interest to protect. In fact, I am someone who stands to gain the most short-term from these sorts of welfare policies. Hell, I even work for "minimum wage" currently - another thing I would like to see abolished!

I simply want society to reward and encourage people who provide genuine value, and stop forcing productive citizens to subsidise unproductive citizens, without any accountability or metrics for the benefit of their investment, because a) I want to make my way up in the world honestly, by offering true value for trade, and b) because I am concerned about the economic damage caused by pervasive, dysfunctional contemporary policy.

If society got rid of all this terrible policy, the abundance of opportunities from the ensuing economic growth would do more to improve the fortunes of the assiduous in a few years than social welfare has accomplished in decades.

[1] www.kickstarter.com

Re: Evicted in San Francisco

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you referring to the person who bought a property knowing about an illegal rental unit and ultimately took their money for years until it was opportune to kick out the nearly destitute leasee?

Are you actually missing the point this badly or just ignoring it on purpose? So what is your actual issue? Are you upset someone bought a property with an illegal addition? Once they bought the house, what would they have had to do to retain "nobility"? Let her live there rent free? Immediately kick her out? Re: "until it was opportune to kick out the nearly destitute leasee", again, what is your expectation here? A…

I'd expect a hefty fine... It seems like there's no penalty for being the landlord of an illegal unit other than having to cease and desist. He should have had to C&D and pay up a multiple of all the rent ever paid on the unit.

The tenant seems like a giant pain, but the landlord is guilty of illegally renting out a unit for years. She shouldn't have been able to remain there and the owner should not have been able to profit off his illegal dwelling.

Re: Evicted in San Francisco

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. It's just the knee jerk reaction that the person not paying rent is the one "screwing someone over" and not the landlord who has collected illegal rent for years and gets to skip out on the responsibilities that entails.

I'm pretty sure that was the best he could at the time. If it was possible, he probably would have evicted her sooner. It's also not like she's completely helpless or didn't know about the home being for sale, and there are plenty of cheap rooms near public transit for rent in the Bay Area. At the end of the day, it's private property. She's not entitled to live there if the owner doesn't want her to.

> At the end of the day, it's private property. She's not entitled to live there if the owner doesn't want her to.

That's not how it works in many places, including in SF. She was not entitled to live there because it was not a legal dwelling.

Re: Evicted in San Francisco

#247
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ok, yeah, I think I read that chapter in Das Capital about how to increase your capital by using government to restrict supply.

You can be as sarcastic as you like, but Marx isn't the only one who gets to define socialism. Coercive government action can rightly be lumped in with socialism. It does not mean that only socialist take coercive government action, but it does not disqualify socialism from this type of activity.

the things kids say....

Re: Evicted in San Francisco

#248
post #46

The reality is that none of us deserve anything. The so called social welfare is nothing but a government's excuse to reduce our liberties. If there is any reason why poor can not afford housing in SF then it is not the fault of the landlord who is trying to make maximum money but the government regulations which prevent him from doing so. It is beyond me why In-Law unit is illegal in SF. The city is expensive, poor…

The city is expensive, poor people are clearly willing to stay in these illegal units which is a better option than staying in a car. What exactly is government's problem ? I am pretty anti-regulation as such things go, but one plausible reason: Such "close quarters" tenancy is bound in the aggregate of a big city to lead to a large number of he-said, she-said disputes of the sort that are nearly impossible for the c…

I do not think government can take away citizen's liberties just because it wants to make government's life simple. This is even more applicable to the weaker sections of the society because they are far more vulnerable. I am sure government can be more creative to come up with better enforceable laws in these cases. It is not in the interest of both tenant and landlord to frequently find themselves visiting a court. They are likely to come up with their own settlement in most cases.

Also there is an opportunity cost involved here. How much resources are spent directly or indirectly by both city administration and other citizens for homeless people and any problems they create ? How much potential revenue in taxes is City losing because such units are not legal ?

Re: Evicted in San Francisco

#249
post #22
post #4

Call me cold, but after reading this I come away with almost no sympathy for the evicted senior citizen. She comes across as very entitled.

I have little sympathy for her, or the new owners (who failed to report the illegal situation to the city immediately after becoming owners of the property). My main take-away from all of this is that being evicted in SF is quite the feat, right up there with climbing Mount Everest or swimming the English channel. We should commend her for accomplishing something so difficult, despite all the people who told her it c…

well, actually not really. Even if you were a perfect tenant, there's nothing stopping you from getting evicted short of human kindness.

Re: Evicted in San Francisco

#250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You advocate, in your own words, allowing people to die on the street unless private citizens decide to render assistance. I would far, far rather have state aid than that.

You imply that, left to their own devices, free to serve their own self-interest, private citizens would not decide to help "people dying on the streets." So in essence you imply that the state must act as a coercive mechanism to override the personal interest of its productive citizens. From where I stand it appears that you endorse tyranny. Can you explain otherwise?

I deny that a state that taxes its citizens and provides services to all in return is necessarily tyrannical. I also deny that I said what you think I said, because your black and white view of the world appears to preclude shades of gray. If it suits you to use scary words, however, then my answer is yes - it is still preferable to your alternative.
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