Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#31

Post by mechanical_fish » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 6:06 PM UTC

TomOfTTB wrote: post #27

mechanical_fish wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society recognizes the fact that some things are simply too morally wrong to be allowed. I don't know what society you live in. But my society has Wal-Mart in it. You think those Wal-Mart folks would hesitate to drop your product from their shelves without giving you a reason? You think they are shy about making their suppliers sign a scary one-sided contract and then holding them to it? And the App Store is not made…

Are you a John Mayer fan? I ask because that “Waiting for the World To Change” song has always bugged the heck out of me. I mean, DUDE, you’re a 30 year old millionaire celebrity whining about how you’re powerless to do anything? Come on. Society is what we make of it and the worst possible excuse for letting an injustice go is because “it’s not like there aren’t other injustices in the world” Also, I think you are u…

I'm not trying to excuse Apple. I'm just suggesting that the standards of "morality" in American business certainly encompass tying people to one-sided contracts and then taking advantage of them. That happens all the time.

So if your plan of action involves convincing anyone but a diehard geek that Apple's actions rise to the level of moral injustice... we've got a lot of work to do. There are a lot of people crying "moral injustice". We'll have to stand in line.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#32

Post by pyre » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 6:18 PM UTC

dejb wrote: post #12

martythemaniak wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, it's nice to see one's views validated. Some of us have been getting downmodded for bad-mouthing Apple's App Store and warning against this kind of stuff since its launch. It's important to note that none of Apple's written or implicit policies have changed - it is only people's perceptions that are now changing. The good part is of this debacle is that, either they will chang…

It certainly has been a strange phenomena, seeing otherwise intelligent geeks arguing the virtues of such a closed and locked down system. I frankly started to wonder whether Apple had a team of paid voters. Hopefully all this results in a freeing up of US mobile networks.

Benevolent dictator syndrome. Apple/Jobs have produced a lot of cool and good products out of the 'my way is always the best way, and I need 100% micromanagement control to make things my way' attitude. Apple has always had this philosophy -- at least under Jobs -- but people tend dismiss it because up to now it's served Apple and Apple fans well.

Though I'm sure if you popped over to someplace like the AppleInsider.net forums there would still be a ton of people trying to defend Apple here. My feelings are the entire 'App Store Approval Process' issue boils down to this:

If Apple feels that they are so right _and_ justified to pull such stunts with the App Store, then why are they in many cases hiding behind some 'iron curtain' of corporate bureaucracy? Why not just come out and say, "These Google Voice apps duplicate 'x' functionality. Sorry, but we won't allow it." If their approval process is anything but blindly throwing darts at the wall, then why not _publish_ their standards so that iphone application developers _know_ what the do's and dont's are so they can navigate the minefield successfully? If those standards miss something, just amend them and apologize to the developer community for overlooking that aspect. But Apple is not doing _any_ of these things.

The developers for the AppStore are Apple's business partners on some level. They are obviously making Apps as part of their own business plans, but they are providing utility and functionality to Apple's product. Apple's product is _more valuable_ as a result of all of the various AppStore applications out there. Yet Apple seems to want to treat their business partners with disdain.

Personally, I would have a hard time trying to justify why I would want to do business with Apple after seeing the way it treats other companies that are doing business with it.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#33

Post by jacquesm » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 6:20 PM UTC

axod wrote: post #25

misuba wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And there won't be, until... developers start developing for something else. If just ten independent developers with interesting apps ported to another platform (doesn't have to be to Android, but of course I'd prefer that) in a coordinated fashion, they'd get immense press and have some real impact.

I don't buy the "People buy the iPhone because it has the app store". The app store is a nice value add, but it's hardly instrumental in the iPhone success story.

people buy an iphone because it is a sexy gizmo, because they want to be part of the hip crowd. If they could they would wear it on a chain on their chest instead of in their pocket. It's a status symbol first, phone second.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#34

Post by fatdog789 » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 6:27 PM UTC

mechanical_fish wrote: post #23

TomOfTTB wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here is that you're confusing "legally wrong" with "morally wrong". I don't think anyone here is questioning the fact that Apple has completely covered their ass with the developer agreement. In fact they’ve essentially made it so they can do just about anything with impunity. But that doesn’t make it right or fair. I’m not one of those “everything should be open” types but Apple should at least be requir…

Society recognizes the fact that some things are simply too morally wrong to be allowed. I don't know what society you live in. But my society has Wal-Mart in it. You think those Wal-Mart folks would hesitate to drop your product from their shelves without giving you a reason? You think they are shy about making their suppliers sign a scary one-sided contract and then holding them to it? And the App Store is not made…

You think those Wal-Mart folks would hesitate to drop your product from their shelves without giving you a reason? You think they are shy about making their suppliers sign a scary one-sided contract and then holding them to it?

Actually, yes I do hesitate. WalMart makes its demands up front. You know exactly what you're getting into when you sign with Walmart. It doesn't change its behavior after you've signed the contract, or make capricious decisions. If something needs to change, Walmart lets the supplier know, and why it needs to change, and how it needs to change. Apple doesn't even give you an email.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#35

Post by credo » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 6:27 PM UTC

I realize that this is a contrarian view, but (in its aim at being sensational), the headline is incorrect.

Apple has not said that it expects developers to pay any refunds out of pocket. On the contrary, the app-store/itunes agreement tells consumers/users that they are not entitled to any refunds for the apps they purchase.

Again, I realize that this is a contrarian view and every comment on this item (more than 50 comments?) seems to assume that the headline is correct. However, can any of you point to any evidence that Apple wants developers to refund users for any GV related app.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#36

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 6:28 PM UTC

martythemaniak wrote: post #4

At the risk of sounding like an asshole, it's nice to see one's views validated. Some of us have been getting downmodded for bad-mouthing Apple's App Store and warning against this kind of stuff since its launch. It's important to note that none of Apple's written or implicit policies have changed - it is only people's perceptions that are now changing. The good part is of this debacle is that, either they will chang…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#37

Post by fatdog789 » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 6:30 PM UTC

invisible wrote: post #7

jws wrote: post #5

Of course they have to pay the customer refunds. The developers accepted a contract agreeing to refund money in certain circumstances, the circumstance have occurred, it is time for them to uphold their end of the contract. The sales have been rolled back, the customers' money is in the developers account (as sympathetic as "pocket" sounds, if they can carry the money in their pocket then this is about very little mo…

I agree, contracts are legally binding. However, there are judgments against contracts in civil court cases merely because the contract is ludicrous. E.g. Apple approved the application, then breached the values of the contract (despite it not being written in the contract) by rejecting the application although the application did not drastically change during it's life-cycle. (The argument may fall better under lack…

Or to put it more succinctly: Apple cannot retain the 30% if it was the cause of removal for an otherwise rules-abiding application. It's known as the doctrine of unclean hands (or possibly may even just be a plain ol' breach of contract).

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#38

Post by pyre » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 6:30 PM UTC

sammcd wrote: post #16

Why is this only newsworthy when Google has to pay the price. Developers have had to pay this price since the inception of the app store. This is one part of the agreement that I think is very unfair, and I am glad it is getting press. Sure we signed a legal agreement, but still it is a bad deal for us, and we have no alternative.

It should have been newsworthy a long time ago. It's only really hitting the fan now because:

1. They rejected Google who seemed to be on good standing with Apple. (i.e. If they'll reject Google over something obtuse, they'll reject anyone)

2. The FCC has even decided to get involved. If this had not happened, there would have been a large uproar in the 'geek community,' but it might have actually died down. A government body conducting an investigation into this gives the story more legs.

3. It was a number of Apps rejected all at once and all related to the same technology (Google Voice). This gives it more attention due to scale (vs. single apps here and there).

4. The number of stories of stupid AppStore approval decisions has been steadily growing. There is a sort of cumulative affect.

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#39

Post by pyre » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 6:43 PM UTC

Gormo wrote: post #15

chaosprophet wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I would like to see is a widespread developer boycott of the iPhone platform. This would bring Apple back to the days where they used to cajole developers into writing software for the Mac.

The analogy with the Mac doesn't really work, because the Mac has never been anything but a computing platform. But the iPhone is a phone first and a platform second. Remember that the iPhone was a huge success when it was introduced in 2007, despite a higher price point and no third-party apps at all. As long as the iPhone is subsidized by phone carriers, Apple's cash cow will be hardware sales. It won't be until th…

This sort of glosses over the underlying problem here:

Apple is treating the developers like crap now. Whether we classify this as outright abuse or just as sever neglect is up for debate, but it's hard to argue that Apple is doing a good job of treating the devs well.

So the developers are supposed to patiently sit by and just 'take' the abuse/neglect waiting for Apple to 'come around' or 'see the light?' I'm sorry, but you can't run a small business based on faith that another business will stop treating your contributions as crap and start treating you with more respect. And even when that business (Apple) decides to respect you more how long until the winds blow the wrong way and you're back to where you started... being treated like crap.

Even a large company like Google with a lot to offer and a good existing relationship with Apple is being pushed around with this AppStore crap. How exactly would you expect to be treated as a smaller business with little to no leverage with Apple?

Re: Apple Expects Google Voice App Developers To Pay Refunds Out Of Pocket

#40

Post by pyre » Sun, Aug 02, 2009, 6:48 PM UTC

fatdog789 wrote: post #37

invisible wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, contracts are legally binding. However, there are judgments against contracts in civil court cases merely because the contract is ludicrous. E.g. Apple approved the application, then breached the values of the contract (despite it not being written in the contract) by rejecting the application although the application did not drastically change during it's life-cycle. (The argument may fall better under lack…

Or to put it more succinctly: Apple cannot retain the 30% if it was the cause of removal for an otherwise rules-abiding application. It's known as the doctrine of unclean hands (or possibly may even just be a plain ol' breach of contract).

If anyone takes this one to court, I'm sure Apple's legal team will try to paint that 30% they take as just a 'fee' to cover the infrastructure costs and that the infrastructure was still used to make the sale even when the customer is asking for a refund. (Not that I agree with what they are doing)