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Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

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Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#291
You should be worrying about plateau in your mind set long before you worry about the pay aspect. Yes we all need income of some sort. Start with living within your means, and then follow what interests you as best you can. Im 51 years old next week, started coding Portran and Basic at 13, worked as a dev, then did consulting, business operations work, started my own business in Hongkong, and now im a product manager of an American software company responsible for Asia Pacific. I could get paid more elsewhere but i love my job and the environment ( live in Guangzhou ).

You will get all sorts of advice about learn this, do that. Bottom line, know yourself well, especially what is deeply important to you as a person, and the rest will take care of itself. Spend time to ponder, have fun, try everything, stay optimistic, read widely.

Right now I get up at 05:30am every day to hack on Arduinos in C and Pythong and burning my fingers with soldering iron, and doing stuff to help my son on his PhD research into humanitarian logistics. 07:30 i down tools, breakfast and shower and go to my day job of ERP, global MNCs, C#, ABL, databases cloud this-and-that. Evenings i review and CTO on a system to help people collaborate worldwide. In between times im learning yoga. Colleagues amazed i do so much. The secret is that hackers/developers are blessed with a natural curiosity - when we learn to occasionally turn that on ourselves we can find that which motivates us, and then can follow that and have tons of fun.

Wish you well.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#292
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a coder, your pay will definitely plateau. Mine seems to keep climbing. I'm hearing reports of >$300k, and have received an offer in that range myself (counting signing bonuses and stock grants). Granted my pay might plateau there , but honestly that's enough money to keep me happy without having to see it go up every year. I'm a total generalist, but I also have a few areas where I would qualify as a specialist;…

">As a coder, your pay will definitely plateau." There are two problems with hitting a plateau @ 300K: Housing costs and College Tuition. At the traditional 3x debt to gross income metric, your home mortgage would be capped around ~$900k, vs the $1.3-1.5MM range of current trading prices. Which is not terrible if you lock something in. However, once you are at 4x paying for schools becomes a far greater challenge. Yo…

Aren't you forgetting your spouse's salary?

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#293
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

">As a coder, your pay will definitely plateau." There are two problems with hitting a plateau @ 300K: Housing costs and College Tuition. At the traditional 3x debt to gross income metric, your home mortgage would be capped around ~$900k, vs the $1.3-1.5MM range of current trading prices. Which is not terrible if you lock something in. However, once you are at 4x paying for schools becomes a far greater challenge. Yo…

Just throwing this out there: if there's a problem with developer salaries being capped at $300K, think of how hard it is for all the families who are making the U.S. median household income of $53K/year, or hell, the Santa Clara County median income of $45K/year. I understand that everybody wants more money - hell, I want more money too. But a lot of that is because everybody wants to be in the top 1% of nice neighb…

Problem - the school systems are funded by property taxes. Live in a low rent area, your kids will be at a crappy school. It's why a family needs to be earning at least 200k, preferably 300k. Rent for a family of 4 is at a minimum of 5k - 6k. The alternative is to live in the midwest, with snow. And a lot of people who don't understand working in tech. And less opportunities.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just throwing this out there: if there's a problem with developer salaries being capped at $300K, think of how hard it is for all the families who are making the U.S. median household income of $53K/year, or hell, the Santa Clara County median income of $45K/year. I understand that everybody wants more money - hell, I want more money too. But a lot of that is because everybody wants to be in the top 1% of nice neighb…

Problem - the school systems are funded by property taxes. Live in a low rent area, your kids will be at a crappy school. It's why a family needs to be earning at least 200k, preferably 300k. Rent for a family of 4 is at a minimum of 5k - 6k. The alternative is to live in the midwest, with snow. And a lot of people who don't understand working in tech. And less opportunities.

How about private schools?

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#295

Clean Room Technician: You know what they do with engineers when they turn forty? [to Aaron, who shakes his head] Clean Room Technician: They take them out and shoot them. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0390384/quotes

I love primer. This quote made me smile.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#296
post #289
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Creating a personal brand is also important. Having a bunch of things listed on a resume or CV makes it hard to put across a level of experience and competence. As time goes by, people should be publishing interesting blog posts, getting involved in interesting projects, amassing followers in social media and generally making a name for themselves. Ideally, you want to get to the point where people ask you to work fo…

As an employer, I'd rather not higher a social-media self-brander to work for me. I'd prefer a developer for engineering jobs. The self-promoter might be a fit for marketing, though!

Sure, that's an OK choice to make for you. But if you're heading into the second half of your career, what you absolutely need to do is establish the fact that you know what you are talking about, and are able to clearly and concisely communicate that. Anyone staying in their career for a long time should be a specialist in a few topics, and should be sharing that knowledge. If you're not specialised, your career will be shorter than it could be.

It's not about marketing and over-the-top self promotion. It's more about taking control over defining yourself so you can't be easily stereotyped based on a cookie-cutter resume.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#297
post #29

It seems that they go a few directions: The most common seems to be to try and generalize, because relearning most of your job skills every few years starts to get annoying the 20th time you've had to do it. It's different when you are younger and everything is new, you just chalk up a major tooling change as just something else to learn. But when the next hot platform or architecture or whatever comes out you get ti…

This is a great post. Another path is into sales. If you have a deep understanding of technology, are able to help people use it to solve their problems, and you can communicate the value to buyers, then you can do quite well in sales. (It's also helpful if you know a thing or two about how to dress and you like to drink.) Another friend started out in programming and IT, but he migrated to a sales engineer job where…

Do you know of any how-to guides for this transition?

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#298
post #29

It seems that they go a few directions: The most common seems to be to try and generalize, because relearning most of your job skills every few years starts to get annoying the 20th time you've had to do it. It's different when you are younger and everything is new, you just chalk up a major tooling change as just something else to learn. But when the next hot platform or architecture or whatever comes out you get ti…

I think the best thing to me about the third path is you get an opportunity to directly help people. I didn't have that opportunity in programming roles and various companies, and it's really the best part of my day. I feel it gives my work life more meaning.

> I didn't have that opportunity in programming roles and various companies, [..]

You can get this in a straight-up programming job, too, if you take on in-house development for a big company, eg a bank. I am doing that right now, and while there's lots to complain about banks, the immediate contact with the users is a great change from making shrink wrap software.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#299
post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's something to be told about learning stuff that matters . Data-structures, algorithms, statistics, machine learning, math in general doesn't change and will be as relevant 30 years from now as it was 30 years ago. POSIX doesn't change either. Learning for learning's sake is actually pointless and can do more harm than good if done tastelessly. The best kind of learning happens either when something is cool and…

How can you hold both of these ideas in your head at the same time? 1. "There's something to be told about learning stuff that matters. Data-structures," 2. "Protobuf won't survive either, because simple text-based protocols always win" If the simple inefficient way always wins, we don't need data structures.

Those 2 ideas are orthogonal and I can't possibly see any connection there.

There's a difference between in-process/in-memory storage/usage of a data-structure and long-term storage on disk or serialization for the purposes of inter-process communications, especially in case you don't control both ends of a conversation or in case your components are a heterogenous mixture of platforms.

Lets say you want to build an index, like say, a B-Tree or something. Are you going to store it on disk as a binary? It surely saves time on rebuilding it and B-Trees can get big, their whole advantage against normal BSTs being that they are more optimal in case their size exceeds the available RAM, so they are meant for being stored. However, the B-Tree itself is not the actual data. It's just an index. You don't care much about losing it, since you can always rebuild it out of the data that it indexes. And most importantly, you aren't going to use Protobuf to store it ;-)

What about the actual data? If it's a database, like a RDBMS, well it's a black box and it's the norm to store things as binary blobs, again for efficiency, but if you haven't followed the trail of people that have had problems migrating their binary storage between different versions of the same RDBMS, or recovering from backups, let me tell you, it ain't nice. Which is why you can't speak of having backups unless you're doing regular SQL dumps. And most importantly, you aren't going to store anything using Protobuf ;-)

What about unstructured data, like terabytes of log lines? Now this is where it gets interesting, as unstructured data is the real source of it all in systems that collect and aggregate data from various streams. You end up storing it, because it's simply data that you may want to parse at some point. Are you going to store that as binary blobs like with Protobuf? You could do that, but it would be your biggest mistake ever, as that data will outlive your software or any of the current business logic, plus the format will evolve a lot ;-)

As for API communications and protocols, I'm unconvinced that something like Protobuf brings performance benefits over plain JSON and I mentioned in another comment that I do have experience and have done comparisons with various bidding exchanges that were sending tens of thousands of requests per second our way. Maybe at a Google-like scale it brings benefits, but for the rest of us it's a nuisance.

Re: Ask HN: What happens to older developers?

#300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congrats on the pay grade! but you need to look at averages not anomalies like yourself 300k is definitely not the tract most programmers are on

Agreed - Around here @100K is higher than most. It all depends on your geography. I would live like a king with 300K!

It would be relative. The ideal is to work somewhere that pays top whack, save, then move to somewhere with lower average incomes. Tricky to do though.
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