Live data from Hacker News

STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

math-blog.com

221–230 of 245 posts

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#221
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is horrible. Maybe I should suck it up, but it's not my fault industry has zero imagination. What are alternatives? I want to be in R&D, something that America doesn't seem to believe much in.

What? America doesn't believe in R&D much? I'd push back rather hard on that statement. US companies invest loads of cash in R&D, more than any other country. The problem is that if you expect to be doing R&D for a YC startup (or even a typical SV consumer web or B2B startup), you're really barking up the wrong tree—those sorts of companies don't do a lot of R&D. If you're really interested in that kind of work, you'…

You need to be careful on how you define R&D. Pure R&D, the kind of culture that spawned say UNIX, Oak (Java) or Plan 9 etc is on the decline as in recent years the bean counters tend to look at pure R&D as a waste of money as there is no medium term return on investment. Look at the decline of IBM Research in the US as an example. Google and in some cases Microsoft are exceptions to this.

However the US tax code allows companies to write off new development of new systems as a tax break, so you typically would be doing this kind of R&D at a startup until the system moves into production and is then accounted for differently for tax purposes.

So US companies invest load of cash in R&D, just not the traditional kind of Pure R&D.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#222

Interesting article. Whenever an article like this pops up the usual chorus is, there is no skill shortage, just a shortage at the price the employer is willing to pay. Sadly I've seen myself as someone on the hiring side of the table fall into a few of these traps listed in the article. A newly minted Phd, is one type of person that I've found myself having trouble hiring. Same with an newly minted Masters. The reas…

> 1) The 10 year developer who has 1 year of experience 10 times over. This is just a junior developer who wants the salary of a senior developer.

What would you say then about a developer that switches job every year so (s)he can learn something new? I think there is a stigma regarding those too.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#223
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? America doesn't believe in R&D much? I'd push back rather hard on that statement. US companies invest loads of cash in R&D, more than any other country. The problem is that if you expect to be doing R&D for a YC startup (or even a typical SV consumer web or B2B startup), you're really barking up the wrong tree—those sorts of companies don't do a lot of R&D. If you're really interested in that kind of work, you'…

You need to be careful on how you define R&D. Pure R&D, the kind of culture that spawned say UNIX, Oak (Java) or Plan 9 etc is on the decline as in recent years the bean counters tend to look at pure R&D as a waste of money as there is no medium term return on investment. Look at the decline of IBM Research in the US as an example. Google and in some cases Microsoft are exceptions to this. However the US tax code all…

Yeah, this is what I was referring to. Pike lamented this in his famous essay, "Systems Software Research is Dead." In it's place, we tend to have more focused R&D, which is still kind of nifty, but can imply a certain amount of acquiescence with the status quo.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As others have noted, having an advanced degree should be a signal that the candidate is capable of deeply investing themselves into a subject area. The typecasting is ridiculous: just because you have no graduate degree but spent the first 3 years of your career working on, say, an online store, does that disqualify you from working in any other area of software engineering? Github as CV has been debated already. Yo…

Owning a popular open source project is obviously valuable. If you're capable of it, do that. The rest is excuses.

Open source is not the meritocracy many think it is.

Let's say you one-upped AngularJS with a new library. How would you compete with that sort of marketing muscle? Devs are no different from regular people: they don't want to change, they'll be averse to re-learning things, and they'll downgrade you for not being backed by Google.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a really strong point. I think the problem you described above is why, in truth, closed allocation tech companies are destined to fail. Closed/open allocation is a continuum in reality, but the more closed a technology company is, the quicker it rots. The "Real Googler Line" concept (and, as you know, I was only at Google for half a year and have no insight into what the place is like now) is the recognition…

I don't think open allocation works either once you get past Dunbar's Number. Instead of making politics go away, it makes it worse. All the political considerations that are out in the open when you're managing a formal org structure become hidden in the backroom deals of who wants to work with who else and how they want to go about doing it. Here's another observation for you: there is a system where there is no or…

Can you give an examples political considerations that are out in the open in a formal org compared to open allocation? I think you could make a case for the opposite.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#226

Interesting article. Whenever an article like this pops up the usual chorus is, there is no skill shortage, just a shortage at the price the employer is willing to pay. Sadly I've seen myself as someone on the hiring side of the table fall into a few of these traps listed in the article. A newly minted Phd, is one type of person that I've found myself having trouble hiring. Same with an newly minted Masters. The reas…

"1) The 10 year developer who has 1 year of experience 10 times over. This is just a junior developer who wants the salary of a senior developer." Like everything else, that depends on the candidate. A person who has had 10 1-year jobs may have tons of applicable experience and be a better developer than the Loyal Schlub who spent two or three 3-4 year stints doing CRUD (or even proprietary trader front-end) app X. G…

I also want to add extra comment regarding #1. Some developers are super and every year they get a new offer from another company and they jump ship. Nothing wrong with that - but maybe a company wants someone who can work with the company for a long term. If a developer who jumps ship every year, they might as well look at someone else who is slightly less senior but good at what they do. I know some companies have contracts that locks down new hires, but i think most of us prefer flexibility but still provide some psudeo-mental confident to the hiring company that "I am not a china easily stealable within a year. Hire me and I will try to help you make things better."

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think open allocation works either once you get past Dunbar's Number. Instead of making politics go away, it makes it worse. All the political considerations that are out in the open when you're managing a formal org structure become hidden in the backroom deals of who wants to work with who else and how they want to go about doing it. Here's another observation for you: there is a system where there is no or…

Can you give an examples political considerations that are out in the open in a formal org compared to open allocation? I think you could make a case for the opposite.

Example 1: You have a group of people who care deeply about performance, reliability, maintainability, and long-term health of the code base. You have another group of people who care deeply about user experience, development velocity, and pushing features to market quickly. In an open allocation system these two mindsets will self-organize into different teams, and will avoid working on each others' projects. The former group will find that the latter are cowboys who throw together messes that they then have to clean up. The latter will find that the former are slow killjoys who result in mediocre products delivered late. The latter group will get to market first, which makes the former believe they're marginalized and gets most of them to quit the company. When the product inevitably starts creaking at the seams, there will be nobody around to fix it and introduce robust development processes.

In a formal org, these would likely be two job functions (call them "SRE" and "SWE", or "Infrastructure" and "Features", say) who are forced by upper management to work on the same codebase. Disagreements between them become explicit negotiations where all the technical issues and trade-offs are laid on the table, and then people can come to an agreement after looking at all the considerations.

Example 2: You have a brilliant developer who is terrible at working with other people and doesn't particularly want to deal with them. In an open-allocation world, he will end up shunned; nobody will want to work with him. In a managed org, it's often possible for his manager to pick off a certain really difficult technical challenge, have him go off and find a solution, and then interface with the rest of the group via some technical API.

Example 3: You have a technical lead who can't let go of the technical aspects, and insists on taking all the most interesting work for himself. In an open-allocation world, nobody will want to work with him, which means that he won't be a tech lead for very long, and eventually he'll probably get frustrated and leave. A manager could gently explain to him that taking all the most interesting work is incompatible with being a team lead, and have him choose one or the other.

Example 4: You have a project where consistency is the whole benefit of the project. For example, you're doing a company-wide visual redesign to make the company's product offerings more consistent for users, or you're introducing a language styleguide, or you're defining standard APIs for communication between components. These efforts typically never succeed unless they have top-down support from a strong leader. Everybody sees the need to agree on a standard, but when it comes to deciding what that standard is, everybody has their own agenda and nobody has authority to decide in favor of one alternative or the other.

Standards committees are good public examples of this: officially, it's "open allocation" where every company and member of the public who wants a voice has one, but unofficially they're dominated by the actions of people who can afford to implement and bring to market a concrete solution.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#228
post #74

While there certainly are companies whose business model is to get cheap workforce from India or China on H1B (just take a look at H1B stats), there is something I don't get. Where and how this pay inequality for local vs. imported workforce manifests for more desirable companies like Google or Facebook? As a student outside United States I had a chance to do internships in the US several times (on J1 visa), and as I…

An important point is that H1Bs basically increase the supply of talented engineers. So even though they're being paid salaries equivalent to their American peers at MSFT/GOOG, without them, the Americans would be making a lot more. With a shortage of engineers, who knows, may be the starting salary would've been $200k instead of $100k. I personally think this is a good thing and keeps America competitive. But some w…

The problem is that H1B's increase the supply of indentured engineers.

The solution is to convert H1Bs to Green Cards much faster. That way all the engineers are competing on a level playing field.

I actually like having more foreign engineers as long as they have green cards. Engineers tend to create companies and a need for more engineers. We all win.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#229
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a non-protectionist world there would be free movement of labor and so there would be nothing stopping say a US or European developer moving overseas to follow the work if that it what they desired. Sadly this is not the case so off-shoring is equally as protectionist which is where a lot of the criticism comes from. Globalization as currently implemented simply moves work to where it is cheaper as protectionist i…

> In a non-protectionist world there would be free movement of labor and so there would be nothing stopping say a US or European developer moving overseas to follow the work if that it what they desired. Sadly this is not the case so off-shoring is equally as protectionist which is where a lot of the criticism comes from. Would like to disagree. An American passport allows you to work from, pretty much most other OEC…

> Would like to disagree. An American passport allows you to work from, pretty much most other OECD countries in the world. So, if Singapore has a better job market for techies than the US, nothing prevents one from relocating.

Even if a US passport allowed you to work from "pretty much most other OECD countries" (which I'm pretty sure is itself false by any reasonable standard for "pretty much most"), Singapore is not a member state of the OECD.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#230
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Obviously no-one is being hired to write x86 assembly. It's taught because it's relevant, important and timeless. Not everything is timeless. Not everything everyone specializes now will be timeless. Some knowledge will be useful always, but if there is not demand for the timeless positions, or demand shrinks rather than grows, then even if someone has timeless knowledge that may not actually be useful in them getti…

> You are asserting that [older] people have timeless knowledge making them more valuable employees than younger people without that timeless knowledge. I never said that.

Just like my questions weren't arguments? I thought you saying that knowledge was timeless was related to older people (the topic) having knowledge. A person may understand principles but if they are not wiling to learn what a company wants they won't be hire able - do you disagree with that too?

I'm trying to understand exactly what on topic (you arguing that ageism is real but not explaining why people would possibly want to higher younger people over older people) you are saying.

If you really think I'm wrong say something which will change my mind.

To summarize the generalizations:

- Companies hire younger people for competitive reasons : they cost less, they are more willing to learn, they have less baggage and less liability

- Older people demand more - they know they can't take risks with jobs and want high paying positions

- Older people are less willing to learn the things younger people are for whatever reason

- Older people may have more fundamental experience, more general knowledge, but if they have specialized heavily in something which is obsolete they can't compete unless they learn something new

- We know that older people run the companies, and start up most new companies - so why are older people choosing younger people instead of their peers?

Are these all wrong? Your other posts have not been convincing. I'm sure if you care about this cause it would be worth converting someone who cares to your view point, because right now all I see are lazy whiners who don't want to compete and want an easy scapegoat to blame.

Post reply on HN