Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course it's not. Why is it reasonable to pay lawyers $600/hr but to pay a skilled computer engineer the same is interpreted as a joke? That's not a rhetorical question -- I'd really like to know the answer. Actually, I suspect I know the answer in many cases, but I'm curious what other people think.
Because there are less lawyer than engineer. You can't outsource lawyer from different country.
STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp
181–190 of 245 posts
Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp
#182Acq-hires are proof of dysfunction. Companies like Yahoo have talent, but can't recognize it at the bottom because the middle-management filter is so defective. So they buy market-verified talent at a panic price. That's shitty for the individual (well, great for 0.05% of them and shitty for 99.95%) because there's so much noise. The problem is that the VC-funded world is full of soft-skulls who never grew up (some a…
'Companies like Yahoo have talent, but can't recognize it at the bottom because the middle-management filter is so defective.' This.
Imagine that you are responsible for a department of people, all of whom need to work together to accomplish a big job. Assume that talent is normally distributed - maybe you have 1 superstar and 1 idiot, 10 high performers and 10 laggards, and 100 average developers. Also assume that the boundaries between categories are fuzzy - it's not that there's 1 superstar who absolutely stands out, it's that there are 2-3 people who are really good, and one is obviously better to you but that isn't apparent to everyone else, and another 20 or so people are just a bit behind them.
What do you do?
If you preference your best programmer, give him the pick of assignments and a lot of latitude to choose projects, you will demotivate all the people who are just below him. Ironically, a lot of michaelochurch's past comments are examples of this - his perspective on the "Real Googler line", and even the grandparent comment, is what things look like for someone who is talented and high-performing and yet right below the line. These folks become bitter, demotivated, subversive, and ultimately toxic to the organization.
Moreover, you destroy the effectiveness of your superstars as well. To accomplish anything in a large organization, you need cooperation from your peers. When your peers resent your special treatment or want to sabotage your rise, you won't get this. So the only way to succeed as a superstar in a large organization is to act very subtly and bring a lot of people with you, which usually means keeping your more radical ideas to yourself and only saying things that can be heard. (Which, really, is how it should be - think of how unpleasant it is to work in an environment with a "golden kid" who's always running around with the latest technologies, not answerable to anyone else, and yet has management's favor.)
This is also why getting rid of laggards is far more important for organizational health than hiring superstars. If you populate an organization full of folks who understand compilers, or understand immutability, or can work with multiple languages, or who understand design patterns, then those techniques become part of the general culture that the whole eng organization can use. If you lack that critical mass, any superstars that understand why those concepts are important will not have the freedom to use those techniques because of the political issues above.
There's very good evidence that the middle-managers know exactly who their star performers are. When they quit to found their own company, who do they call? You often have groups of programmers that have worked together through multiple companies, and as soon as you hire one the whole group comes on board within a year. But within a company, the constraints of organizational politics prevent them from favoritism, which is probably how it should be.
Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp
#183Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Unless of course if this isn't about age or sex. I'm female and not getting any younger by the way. But I still don't buy the bull others try to sell. You're rebutting a straw man. > No startup is a sure thing. Younger people are less risk averse. Again, a moot point. If an employee is applying to work for a startup, they're acknowledging the risk. The risk, by the way, is negligible for employees. > It's not that…
>You're rebutting a straw man. >Ageism: people are not being hired because of their age only and not for any other reason. >The risk, by the way, is negligible for employees. What. Employees don't care that they might not have a job? Employees don't care that they might not be able to be paid? >This doesn't make sense. Companies don't want to pay for what they don't need. People feel entitled to what they feel they a…
You're relying on make-believe scenario to argue a point.
> I think you are mistaking my snark for me actually asserting things.
Sure.
> Whose responsibility is it to fix the apparent ageism if the people complaining about it don't want to do anything to solve their own problems?
Who, aside from you, say they don't? It's an industry wide issue which is actually being addressed.
Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp
#184Earlier quoted context omitted.
> their area of specialization doesn't really help in the role I'm hiring Perhaps you should instead consider that their specialization is a specific example of them applying themselves to a difficult new problem and solving it. It seems unlikely to be able to constantly hire people already experienced with what you're doing. Wouldn't you rather hire someone who's demonstrated an ability to learn something new and su…
The problem is that for many areas of software it is not possible to be effective without at least a couple years of fairly deep experience. That is the learning curve regardless of how smart someone is and it is difficult to justify hiring someone that will not be qualified to fill the job they were nominally hired for for two years. It is not a matter of training per se, it is the amount of time required to develop…
I doubt that this is the norm though. I get the impression that most of these hiring managers who don't value experience are hiring for pretty uninteresting work and simply want inexpensive labour. The op didn't state what area of work he's in, but if a junior is the ideal candidate, it's very likely not very interesting or difficult work.
edit: after a bit of digging, it turns out that the OP works on trading systems in Canada. The ironic thing is that 125k is quite a bit above a junior position in most of Canada. So it's not clear what is going on here. When hiring PhDs, he's competing with the US companies and might be a bit shy of what they pay. On the other hand, if he's paying a junior 125k, he's paying well above the local average.
Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp
#185Earlier quoted context omitted.
My guess is that as "our" generation ages, age discrimination will subside greatly. There are a few factors I think currently contributing to the the current age discrimination practices that are unique. First is that the consumer web is relatively young and that our generation was the first to adopt it on a mass scale. And second, the most prominent and visible tech success stories of the past decade have revolved a…
Consumer web is 20 years old. Those engineers in their late 40s / early 50s invented the thing.
Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp
#186Interesting article. Whenever an article like this pops up the usual chorus is, there is no skill shortage, just a shortage at the price the employer is willing to pay. Sadly I've seen myself as someone on the hiring side of the table fall into a few of these traps listed in the article. A newly minted Phd, is one type of person that I've found myself having trouble hiring. Same with an newly minted Masters. The reas…
In regards to a newly minted PhD, it invokes training someone who has spent 10+ years (or even their whole lives) in academia. Other items to look out for: - If the only projects they produced have been for academia or they have had a history of starting AND not finishing multiple side/non-academia projects - Little to no involvement in group work or publications (which makes me think - what have you been doing durin…
Generally there are 3+ years between writing your Master's Thesis and your PhD, during which you spend a lot of time writing and editing and would hopefully get significantly better at doing so. I don't think there is any inconsistency in seeing an improvement in ability over that long span. It would be like looking at someone's code from the beginning of their career, comparing it to something they just wrote, and citing the inferior quality of their earlier work as a clear sign that someone else helped them with their most recent stuff.
> - I found out that they registered a domain name Dr back even before they started. Who the heck does that?
Why is this weird? Presumably if you're entering a doctoral program, you plan on finishing it (whether or not that happens). Whats wrong with getting a domain if you think you'll need it in the future?
Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
>You're rebutting a straw man. >Ageism: people are not being hired because of their age only and not for any other reason. >The risk, by the way, is negligible for employees. What. Employees don't care that they might not have a job? Employees don't care that they might not be able to be paid? >This doesn't make sense. Companies don't want to pay for what they don't need. People feel entitled to what they feel they a…
> When they have a lot of experience but nothing useful to contribute they blame things which do not factor in at all in hiring. You're relying on make-believe scenario to argue a point. > I think you are mistaking my snark for me actually asserting things. Sure. > Whose responsibility is it to fix the apparent ageism if the people complaining about it don't want to do anything to solve their own problems? Who, aside…
I live in a reality where technology is constantly changing, where people need to learn new things or get left behind in their usefulness. If they have years of experience in software or systems which no one uses anymore that doesn't guarantee them anything.
>It's an industry wide issue which is actually being addressed.
People solving their own problems instead of complaining about them on message boards? Mission Accomplished! Wait, so companies really were not hiring the best people who give them the most value and now suddenly are thanks to people speaking up? When did all of this happen?
Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp
#188So, my brother used to work in a small clock shop. These were really precise clocks (nanosecond) and they did distributed timing. You have an oil field, maybe, and want to know the size of it? Send out a blast pulse and record the echos. But the recorders need to really know where and when they hear the echo over a few hundred square miles. Its not easy stuff to deal with.
But the company had Frank. Frank had been there since the beginning. He had written all the code for the clocks, he built and wired the entire place, he knew the whims of the servers and the phone system, the slight burning smells that meant an imminent failure. Frank was the company, and the rest of them where there to make sure Frank was working and happy. Yeah, he owned a bit of the equity, not a major share, but a bit. No-one else knew all the passwords or the files like Frank. Frank barely had time for his kids, let alone to train anyone else. To keep things going, Frank was the ONLY person.
So, this worried the owners a lot. If Frank got cancer or in an accident, they were screwed. Hell, everyone was screwed. But to train anyone up was near impossible. Because Frank didn't have the time between putting out the little fires in the code and sleeping and making money for the owners. Frank didn't have them in a bind as much as Frank himself was in a bind. He wanted time to see soccer games, but he wanted his kids to go to college more, and that meant the money came first.
So, what was everyone supposed to do? They needed a new Frank. But anyone they brought on was just confused by the spaghetti of wires and the nonsense code that Frank had made 20 years ago to solve some problem half drunk at 2am on a Saturday. There was no record because there was no time to make one. You had to just clone Frank's brain, because nothing else would do in time.
My brother left that company because trying to untangle the Gordian Knot that Frank and the comapny were committed to was a noose.
But there are a few thousand Franks out there. There are a ton of companies that are in this bind. They have 2 or 3 guys that can actually do the job. And trying to replace that team is impossible. When the Zuck merps out that they can't find anyone, he is not lying, but mis-speaking. He means that Frank's phone is out of juice.
Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
Of course it's not. Why is it reasonable to pay lawyers $600/hr but to pay a skilled computer engineer the same is interpreted as a joke? That's not a rhetorical question -- I'd really like to know the answer. Actually, I suspect I know the answer in many cases, but I'm curious what other people think.
Because there are less lawyer than engineer. You can't outsource lawyer from different country.
Maybe not trial lawyers or other positions where you need a warm body in the courtroom, but entry level lawyers are feeling the outsourcing squeeze as well.
Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Myth : The highest paid are in the 30-40 age bracket. I'm not saying people are not paid money I'm saying older people will expect higher salaries based on their experience compared to younger people despite the direct value they can contribute to a company. Value = money. >...but they already know so much more that learning is less important. They know it already! Yes, they know so much... of things no one uses any…
> Technology changes fast and what is useful to know now won't be in 15 years. This claim is bandied about way too carelessly. Application level tools do change quite fast. The fundamentals of technology do not. Knowledge of networking, TCP/IP, x86 assembly, stack discipline, cache implementations, etc. is comparatively timeless. For instance, one of CMU's core CS/ECE classes (213) has been taught in roughly the same…
>is comparatively timeless
Why are companies apparently hiring younger people over older people who are vastly more experienced and given that timeless knowledge would give so much more value to their companies? Are they just plain stupid?