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STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

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Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#151

Post by pessimizer »

Tohhou wrote: post #70
doktrin wrote: post #2

I wonder if we as an industry will continue to practice almost blatant age discrimination as the current generation of engineers grows older. If we continue to obsess over youth, the job market will be remarkably unpleasant 15 years from now.

Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen. Either it's really a grand conspiracy like some claim or the situation is not so simple. I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their exper…

>If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen.

This is a religious belief, and should be treated as such.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#152

Post by vonmoltke »

rayiner wrote: post #130
aganders3 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Areas where the tech industry is more "meat space" than "net space" seem to have more PhDs per capita among the engineers. Can you explain this a little more? I'm genuinely interested.

The southeast has three major tech hubs: the Dulles corridor in NoVA, the Triangle in NC, and Atlanta. They also have quite a few good schools with big graduate programs that feed into the market (VT/UMD, Duke/UNC/NCSU, GT/Emory). The software work in these places is often some integral component of a meat-space product, and that meat-space product is often in a complex problem domain in which the specialization of a…

Don't forget Houston and the oil and gas industry. The geophysical and service companies are also full of advanced degrees.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#153

Post by viscanti »

smooj wrote: post #126
viscanti wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we know what role Acton applied for? I saw the twitter posts about the rejection but never saw what job he was applying for. It's hard for me to generalize about the industry from this one specific case, without even knowing what job he was allegedly rejected from (his experience may have been undesirable for an entry level position where the hiring manager felt he was overqualified, or conversely he probably lack…

He was VP of Engineering at Yahoo before he left, so it stands to reason that he was applying for a very senior role.

That's probably a safe assumption. I'd imagine he was looking for another very senior-level job. In that case, it seems silly to use it as an example for why there might be a shortage of talent for entry-level to mid-level engineers. It doesn't seem like his experience was detrimental, or that he didn't fit some specific pattern (based on age, etc).

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#154

Post by ap22213 »

glesica wrote: post #31
chollida1 wrote: post #8

Interesting article. Whenever an article like this pops up the usual chorus is, there is no skill shortage, just a shortage at the price the employer is willing to pay. Sadly I've seen myself as someone on the hiring side of the table fall into a few of these traps listed in the article. A newly minted Phd, is one type of person that I've found myself having trouble hiring. Same with an newly minted Masters. The reas…

> A newly minted Phd, is one type of person that I've found myself having trouble hiring. Same with an newly minted Masters. The PhD issue makes some sense, a person who just spent two to four years becoming an expert in a narrow area of specialization may want to use that knowledge, and may not be all that much more valuable if you don't need it (especially since his or her other skills may not have "kept up"). Howe…

As someone who occasionally hires, a masters doesn't really show much in terms of talent, but it does sometimes show a level of specialization. And, there are times when I need a specialist (e.g. image processing, feature analysis, statistics, etc.). But, generally, I don't need a lot of specialists.

Also, there seem to be two types of people who go for masters. There are those that really love their particular specialty, and are willing to sacrifice significant opportunity costs to master it. I respect that group. And, then there are those that think that a masters will get them more pay, but who also had calculated that they couldn't increase their pay the hard way (e.g. working for it). I'm wary of the that group.

Also, when hiring a specialist, I don't want one who has focused on topics that any good developer with a B.S. can research independently: operating systems, languages, data structures, algorithms. I want one with a particular domain specialty - someone who can read recent research papers, and implement it.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#155

Post by Tohhou »

doktrin wrote: post #111
Tohhou wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen. Either it's really a grand conspiracy like some claim or the situation is not so simple. I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their exper…

> Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. Who is claiming that first world women are an untapped source of cheap labor? In what field? > [older people] are less likely to start up their own companies like younger people are bec…

>Who is claiming that first world women are an untapped source of cheap labor? In what field?

The people who claim that women are discriminated against purely based on gender. If women really are being discriminated based on gender, and companies are hiring less qualified men in favor of more qualified women, then someone should be able to hire up all of the women who are being snubbed by all of the sexist companies and have a competitive advantage over them, right? Same situation with older people, right? Unless of course if this isn't about age or sex. I'm female and not getting any younger by the way. But I still don't buy the bull others try to sell.

>Age discrimination in this context applies to employee hiring.

Are older people better employees or worse? Are they hiring based on age or the other things and age is only an easy thing to blame?

>Is "risk taking" a criteria your company applies when looking for talent?

No startup is a sure thing. Younger people are less risk averse. It's not that a company wants people who will take risks it's that older people want more of a sure thing. They walk in and expect a salary which matches their years of experience, while most places hiring have no use for their experience. Their experience would add no value to their business, and so hiring a younger person who does not demand such a high salary is a better option.

>For one thing, the market can't reward new approaches if no-one tries them.

There is no law keeping the people clamoring about ageism from do that. No one can force others to nor should they be able to. Clearly if they believe that hiring older people is such a good move they should be able to make a lot of money.

I'm unaware of laws which make it harder or impossible for older people to get hired?

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#156

Post by Tohhou »

pessimizer wrote: post #151
Tohhou wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Claims of age discrimination is like claims that there is untapped cheap labor in hiring women in first world countries. If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen. Either it's really a grand conspiracy like some claim or the situation is not so simple. I think it's more likely older people expect to get paid more for their exper…

>If the claims were true anyone could hire up all of the cheap labor and stomp their discriminating competitors. That doesn't happen. This is a religious belief, and should be treated as such.

Competitive advantage isn't a real thing? You can hire anyone no matter what and be just as successful for sure?

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#157

Post by rayiner »

GabrielF00 wrote: post #146
not_paul_graham wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes man the irony. Georgia Tech tells you that you've graduated in the top 10% of your class, institutional highest honors and all that. And then your parents call you and tell you that they spent six figures on your education and you are essentially worth nothing. Here are some quotes from my parents: "If you really wanted to work as a shitty programmer for a small pay we could have saved all that money instead of s…

If any parents are out there, please don't do this. Your children are independent adults and they have their own values and goals. They are not an investment opportunity or a vessel for your own unfulfilled aspirations. If you make your kids feel that you're disappointed in them you're just going to make them miserable and resentful and you'll have a lousy relationship as adults. Please value your children's happines…

It's a fine line that's hard to walk. In stark contrast to my asian parents, my wife had hippie Oregonian parents who said "do whatever makes you happy!" She regrets a little that they never gave her the information and support she needed to pursue Ivy-league colleges.

It's not your job as a parent to prioritize happiness over prestige and money, just as its not your job to prioritize the other way. What you bring to the table as a parent is experience and knowledge of the world, and you need to make sure your kids have the information they need to make the decisions they need to make. Maybe your kid grows up and wants to be an investment banker making a few million a year. You don't have to push them in that direction, but it's valuable to them if you tell them what they need to do to prepare for that if they ultimately want to pursue that.

And keep in mind: nearly everyone will value money more at 35 than at 15, but the decisions we make that lead to that are often made long before we can appreciate what the impact will be.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#158

Post by matwood »

thelastpizza wrote: post #61
matwood wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone who has interviewed in the field of programming there are many frauds. I don't even necessarily mean deliberate frauds but there are clearly people who are employed as programmers/engineers who have no business being such. I agree mostly, but for a different reason. I see a lot of people who have experience in years, but not in work. They were basically hired out of school, learned their job in 6…

It's very frustrating to be in this position when you don't want to be. It's like 'My pay is good, but my long-term prospects are falling apart.'

It is basically the innovators dilemma on a personal level.

Re: STEM Shortage Claims and Facebook's $19 Billion Acquisition of WhatsApp

#159

Post by 3am »

chollida1 wrote: post #8

Interesting article. Whenever an article like this pops up the usual chorus is, there is no skill shortage, just a shortage at the price the employer is willing to pay. Sadly I've seen myself as someone on the hiring side of the table fall into a few of these traps listed in the article. A newly minted Phd, is one type of person that I've found myself having trouble hiring. Same with an newly minted Masters. The reas…

I have no clue how anyone could justify downvoting your comment. It's hard to believe that anyone downvoting you could be a hiring manager in a technical field. I have had extremely similar experiences looking for both experienced and junior candidates, and with the price of senior candidates it's a costly mistake on a bad hire. Thank you for sharing your story..
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