Live data from Hacker News

HTML is object code

rondam.blogspot.com

21–30 of 68 posts

Re: HTML is object code

#21

worth saying that my argument has nothing to do with css vs tables, but I dont agree with this at all, it may be object code to you, but it is always source code to the client, the browser that has to render it, the screenscraper that wants to pull data from it, the client side scripts that want to modify it. another disagreement I have with it is that even though it may be generated by whatever fancy backend you wan…

but it is always source code to the client

Source code is what people read/write, object code is what software & hardware reads/writes. HTML is always object code to the client.

HTML and CSS are still source code to most people -- most web sites are designed by designers who hand you off perfect static renderings before you tear them apart and plug them into whatever template engine you're using. But look at something like http://www.extjs.com -- the HTML is complete object code generated entirely using Javascript.

Re: HTML is object code

#22
The "tables vs. CSS" argument has a clear answer and I can't believe we are still arguing about it.

CSS people who argue against tables are obeying their instinct that content and presentation should be separate. They are mostly right about this (I say mostly because the more graphical a webpage is, the more the content and the presentation are inextricably linked).

What the CSS people refuse to acknowledge is that CSS dropped the ball on this, and that CSS failed to incorporate tools for describing layouts in table-based ways. The table-based paradigm is a very natural way to describe layouts -- that's why everyone used tables for this prior to CSS!

Tables are not the enemy! Tables are natural! Tables are expressive! Give me any web page and I'll draw you the lines that show its "table-ness".

If CSS supported tables properly, the web standards people wouldn't have to walk around being enforcers about this. If you could easily convert HTML-based tables to CSS-based tables, everybody could be happy and live in harmony.

The CSS advocates should redirect their ire to the shortcomings of CSS, rather than the people who are working around those shortcomings!

Re: HTML is object code

#23

worth saying that my argument has nothing to do with css vs tables, but I dont agree with this at all, it may be object code to you, but it is always source code to the client, the browser that has to render it, the screenscraper that wants to pull data from it, the client side scripts that want to modify it. another disagreement I have with it is that even though it may be generated by whatever fancy backend you wan…

but it is always source code to the client Source code is what people read/write, object code is what software & hardware reads/writes. HTML is always object code to the client. HTML and CSS are still source code to most people -- most web sites are designed by designers who hand you off perfect static renderings before you tear them apart and plug them into whatever template engine you're using. But look at somethin…

2 of those 3 'clients' were people (screen scrapers and client scripts). In order for either of these to exist the data needs to be in a code that can be read by people.

Re: HTML is object code

#24
post #2

This a a major leap. Once you understand that HTML is object code, a whole new world of architectural possibilities opens up to you. Not exactly a new idea either. pg talked about this years ago... http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50159

Seaside and Web Velocity are very much in line with this idea.

Re: HTML is object code

#25
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Huh? Why would that be a valid point? It's no harder to swap out different kinds of render methods than it is to swap style sheets.' its much much harder to switch rendering engines than to switch css files try changing this websites rendering engine, first you need to hack the server, then you need to understand the source code(and learn the language if you dont know it already), then learn how the renders are perf…

What you say is true, but only because the software most people use on their servers makes it true. The conclusion is not that we should continue to use the current broken infrastructure, but that we should build different infrastructure. Your argument is kind of like someone in 1904 arguing that air travel will never be commercially viable because there aren't any airports. I find it a bit distressing that I would h…

I didnt make an argument I pointed out a blatantly incorrect statement.

but to follow your point is there anything fundamentally flawed in the concept of html/css/javascript that makes portable sites impossible, or are you suggesting we make some pluggable generic server side rendering that can be controlled by the client because css doesnt deal with heights very well yet?

Re: HTML is object code

#26
post #14

Ah yes. The old "x is hard. Writing x sometimes gets messy. I don't want to deal with all the intricacies and details of x. I know, I'll create an abstraction layer!" Of course, in the best of all possible worlds, you'll end up with a perfect abstraction layer which is powerful enough to allow you to do everything you need, while hiding all of the the gory details. In the worst case, you end up with a leaky abstracti…

I guess the real question is, what exactly is the problem with HTML? HTML is ok, it's CSS that's got the problem. It's the difference between Microsoft Word and Publisher; CSS doesn't provide enough layout primitives to do common web layouts easily. Instead, you have to specifically structure your HTML for it and layer on the tags and copious amounts of CSS code.

The problem is that, unlike Word vs. Publisher, we don't have a set medium that we're working toward (e.g. paper.) When CSS was created, it controlled and formatted all the things that browsers could present, which wasn't very darn much. Then we thought of more things for browsers to do, and had to make our CSS much more complicated to get the same effects.

To give an even older parallel, when HTML was created, it had formatting primitives that were just fine for the browsers that existed at the time. Then, as people wanted more from browsers, spacer gifs and other such aberrations were invented to allow us to achieve our complex ideals, until we invented CSS and things were simple again, for a time.

The point is, the web is an ever-changing medium. We create a language for easily expressing existing web designs, and then set our sights higher and bludgeon that design language into expressing new (and previously unachievable) designs—such as, say, multi-column text layout—until we create a new web design language and the process starts over. This isn't a problem with CSS; no matter what we create, it will never be enough. There's only so much you can do with ink on the boundaries of a page of paper; there'll never be a limit to new ways to lay out shapes and vectors in an infinitely scrollable, resizable, dynamic, animated and reactive space that can be variously interpreted by different clients.

That's not to say CSS isn't showing its age. It's just that this isn't shouldn't be considered a failing in the original design of CSS; rather, it should be seen as a sign of experience for web designers, that they now have newer, larger ideas that their smaller, brittler tools aren't up to expressing. Perhaps this is the best argument of all for separating content from presentation—if they're separate, we can replace CSS with something more robust (and then replace that with something even robust-er-er) without touching the content itself.

Re: HTML is object code

#27
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you say is true, but only because the software most people use on their servers makes it true. The conclusion is not that we should continue to use the current broken infrastructure, but that we should build different infrastructure. Your argument is kind of like someone in 1904 arguing that air travel will never be commercially viable because there aren't any airports. I find it a bit distressing that I would h…

I didnt make an argument I pointed out a blatantly incorrect statement. but to follow your point is there anything fundamentally flawed in the concept of html/css/javascript that makes portable sites impossible, or are you suggesting we make some pluggable generic server side rendering that can be controlled by the client because css doesnt deal with heights very well yet?

> is there anything fundamentally flawed in the concept of html/css/javascript that makes portable sites impossible

No, of course not.

> or are you suggesting we make some pluggable generic server side rendering that can be controlled by the client because css doesnt deal with heights very well yet

Yeah, pretty much. That way you don't have to wait for the standards bodies or the browser developers.

Re: HTML is object code

#28
The problem is that your "object code" is someone else's "source code". When you follow standards, it's easy for people to use what you've published; when you don't, it's painful.

A simplistic example: say you put out a typical web page with a navigation area and content area. Maybe for some reason, your website is much easier for me to use if I put the navigation above or below the content or maybe you put it on the left, and it works better for me on the right. If you used standard practices (CSS) to position your elements on the page, it's really easy for me to go in and mold that to exactly what I want. Why? Because it's the standard, so there are plenty of tools out there for this. All I do is tell the browser to overlay my css rule on your page and I'm done. On the other hand, if your layout is done with tables, well then it becomes much more difficult because you didn't follow the rules that the majority of us have agreed to.

Re: HTML is object code

#29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but it is always source code to the client Source code is what people read/write, object code is what software & hardware reads/writes. HTML is always object code to the client. HTML and CSS are still source code to most people -- most web sites are designed by designers who hand you off perfect static renderings before you tear them apart and plug them into whatever template engine you're using. But look at somethin…

2 of those 3 'clients' were people (screen scrapers and client scripts). In order for either of these to exist the data needs to be in a code that can be read by people.

So, your point is that programs can't process data if it isn't human readable?

Re: HTML is object code

#30
post #3

I think this makes good points about how we should be working with html these days, except those few of us who do static tables by hand. One thing I am concerned about in the concept of doing all the work on the server is that CSS has the ability to let the client override some of the presentation issues, such as is the case for accessibility. I wonder if that can be done as effectively on the server.

GWT fully embraces the notion that the languages implemented by the browser can be treated as target languages for cross-compilation. The beauty of its design is that the server need not play any role beyond delivering the compiled output...or rpc/json requests for data if you need some. I'm shocked that GWT went unmentioned in his essay and the comments.
Post reply on HN