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Google+ names policy discriminates against American Native Indians

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Re: Google+ names policy discriminates against American Native Indians

#101

Post by protomyth »

reluk wrote: post #17

I hope that OP isn't seriously suggesting that “discrimination” was a factor, it’s too serious an accusation to be thrown around so carelessly. There are enough past incidents of “unusual” names being erroneously flagged to suggest it's no about irrational human discrimination but about imperfect mostly automated processes. The policy is about using “real names”, the automated system was obviously tripped and the app…

> I hope that OP isn't seriously suggesting that “discrimination” was a factor, it’s too serious an accusation to be thrown around so carelessly.

Perhaps, but this isn't Google's first screw-up where tribes are involved[1].

> imperfect systems don’t imply malice

Imperfect system do imply malice when the only appeal that works is embarrassing a company via PR.

> I assume they’ll be more mindful of native American names

That is a rather large assumption given their customer care history.

1) http://www.att.com/Common/about_us/public_policy/ATTLetter_F...

Re: Google+ names policy discriminates against American Native Indians

#102

Post by protomyth »

Thinking about it, I do have a question for the Google folks: When testing your "Real Name Detection Algorithm" did you use actual names from phonebooks (or other sources) that could have included Native American names?

I guess my big problem is the thought that "Yellow Horse" triggered your automated systems in the first place. It's not like "Yellow Horse" is that uncommon a name with the Lakota. You would think with the obvious resources of a search company that had to scoop up tons of addresses and vCards from the internet, Google would have found out some Native American style names. Did some programmer think they were just fantasy names and ignore it or did they not test this thing.

It was bad enough with the Google Voice crap, but this is just too far. Has Google made an official comment on it?

Re: Google+ names policy discriminates against American Native Indians

#103

Post by protomyth »

userbinator wrote: post #58

The weirdest thing about their naming policy is that you can make up a ton of fake names that fit their policy, but then someone with a real name comes along that doesn't. (Some part of me thinks we should just give everyone a GUID or something and be done with it...)

But this is Google, they don't need to make up a ton of fake names. They index the contents of the web and surely can see a ton of vcards and addresses on contact pages to run through their name rejection algorithm. Some of those have Native American names.

Re: Google+ names policy discriminates against American Native Indians

#104

Post by patio11 »

tarblog wrote: post #22
harshreality wrote: post #5

Obligatory: patio11's Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names http://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-b... (was dead, now live, if dead again it's in google's cache) However, until Google's (and Facebook's) absurd name restrictions (or even the idea that "proper" "official" names exist at all for humans) start seriously affecting their real customers (advertisers), they will not give a shit . An…

I dislike when lists are written in such a way that the reader must mentally negate all of the statements the author is making. It's more difficult for me to quote or remember out of context correctly. I also feel like I learned a lot less than if the author had told me the things that are common problems and how to fix them or offered a model of names that is less-bad than the one most websites use.

This is a very deliberate stylistic choice. Compare:

"People have, at this point in time, exactly one official name." "There exist at least some people who will, at at least some instants in time, have either zero or two or more official names." Now multiply that sort of circumlocution by 40.

I frequently receive the feedback "I wish you had identified a solution", which suggests to me maybe I missed the opportunity to title the post "Names are intractable hard and any programmer who thinks their program has solved them is wrong." I thought that was pretty explicit in the first paragraph but people seem to really WANT this problem to have a Ruby gem available such that they don't have to worry about it. I want dragons, but will live with my disappointment.

Re: Google+ names policy discriminates against American Native Indians

#105

Post by cardiffspaceman »

wpietri wrote: post #61
Tohhou wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will explain it. Google wants personal identity attached to posts on Google+ people Google thinks that people will value what they say when they are not posting anonymously. Some engineer wrote a thing to try to catch obviously fake names, and some kinds of real names, which actually are attached to real identity, get caught in the filter. They didn't target specific groups of people because they hate them ffs. I a…

It sounds like your understanding of racism is not very nuanced. Explicit statements of racial hatred are the most obvious kind of racism. But that's not where it ends. For example, consider the study "Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?" [1] They found that resumes with black-sounding names were less employable than the same resumes with white-sounding names. Is that because a large number of…

And the building isn't necessarily in an office park.

Re: Google+ names policy discriminates against American Native Indians

#107

Post by wpietri »

Tohhou wrote: post #97
wpietri wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like your understanding of racism is not very nuanced. Explicit statements of racial hatred are the most obvious kind of racism. But that's not where it ends. For example, consider the study "Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?" [1] They found that resumes with black-sounding names were less employable than the same resumes with white-sounding names. Is that because a large number of…

When everything is racism nothing is. For example, assuming Google is mainly white, mainly male, mainly white male when it's not. They go out of their way to ensure diversity in their organization.

Last time I ate lunch in the cafeteria there, it looked majority male and majority white to me. If you have stats, I will read them eagerly.

Re: Google+ names policy discriminates against American Native Indians

#108

Post by wpietri »

cardiffspaceman wrote: post #105
wpietri wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like your understanding of racism is not very nuanced. Explicit statements of racial hatred are the most obvious kind of racism. But that's not where it ends. For example, consider the study "Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal?" [1] They found that resumes with black-sounding names were less employable than the same resumes with white-sounding names. Is that because a large number of…

And the building isn't necessarily in an office park.

Are we talking about the same Google? Because when I was last at the headquarters, it sure looked like a suburban office park to me.

Re: Google+ names policy discriminates against American Native Indians

#109

Post by chris_wot »

ampersandy wrote: post #98
nimblegorilla wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure the programmers who did this had no ill intentions, but when someone tells you about a broken algorithm multiple times and you ignore it then you are no longer smart. A lot of very common names are also dictionary words (Jack, Jon, Dick, Smith, Smart, Baker, LARRY PAGE, etc...) so someone clearly sat down and figured out an algorithm to allow or restrict certain words. Whoever came up with that algorithm sho…

As if Google's naming policy is a check against a list of words... More likely; Google has implemented an algorithm that uses machine learning and several other heuristics to try and determine the probability that the name is real or not. Still sound like incompetence? Does a name like "Elaine Yellow Horse" seem real or fake? You simply can't win all the time when you deal with billions of people. Google's customer s…

If Google's customer support and appeal process leave a lot to be desired and they haven't changed it in several years, you just gave us an example of incompetence.

Re: Google+ names policy discriminates against American Native Indians

#110

Post by chris_wot »

protomyth wrote: post #81
coldcode wrote: post #60

What is an American Native Indian? That's a new one to me.

Having grown up on a reservation, I really have never heard that combination. Its "Indian", "Native American", or "American Indian". Canada adds "First Nation". Using three words is pretty unnatural. Really not sure why people are down voting you.

I apologize if I got this wrong. No offense was intended.
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